The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Welcome to this Plenary meeting. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber, and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and those are set out on your agenda. I would also like to remind Members that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary meetings apply to this meeting, and apply equally to Members in the Chamber as to those joining virtually.

Before I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services for questions, I wish to inform Members that I have received two requests for an urgent debate today on the new coronavirus restrictions due to come into force on Friday—one request from Andrew R.T. Davies, and another from Adam Price. The regulations governing those restrictions today remain unpublished. An urgent debate in accordance with Standing Order 12.69 does not proceed on the basis of a motion. As such, the Senedd would not have had the opportunity to vote on the matter today. I can inform the Senedd that the Government has tabled a motion for debate next Tuesday on the same matter. The motion will give the Senedd the opportunity to have a meaningful vote on the motion and any amendments tabled. I expect that vote to be influential on the continuation of the regulations or not. The deadline for tabling amendments will be extended until 4 p.m. this Friday. As the Senedd has the opportunity, therefore, to debate and vote on this matter during the next Plenary session, I do not propose to call either Member to move an urgent debate to be held today. However, I will invite them to make some comments on the record now. Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer, and I'm grateful for you offering consideration of the proposal for a motion to be taken today. I understand the balancing act that you as Presiding Officer have in deciding how to push these things forward. I do think it's a missed opportunity. I hear what you say about the Government bringing their motion next Tuesday for us to vote on, but this is a matter of considerable public opinion, and, certainly from my inbox, that opinion has been expressed very forcibly, I would suggest, in my electoral area. I look forward to seeing what the Government have to say next week and, as it's an amendable motion, look forward to amendments being put. But the First Minister did, in his statement yesterday, say that the opposition hadn't put any alternative proposals forward. Well, if we don't have the opportunity to debate, it's a little difficult to put those proposals forward, as a Government statement is for Ministers to be questioned on the statement they've put before this house. We are a Parliament, we are parliamentarians; if we're to be taken seriously, we should have the respect and we should have the opportunity to debate these issues and represent the people who put us here. But I am grateful for your consideration, Presiding Officer, and I do think it is the Government that has missed the opportunity here, and has, in this particular instance, in my opinion, shown disrespect to the Welsh Parliament.

And Siân Gwenllian, on behalf of Adam Price.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you, Llywydd. By next Tuesday, of course, the new regulations will have been implemented. So, what further pressure can you as Llywydd put on the Government to ensure that we do have a vote on the principle of introducing these regulations before they come into force on Friday? A precedent was set with the firebreak lockdown, when there was an opportunity to vote prior to the introduction of those regulations. These changes to be introduced on Friday are substantial, and we also need to see the evidence that has led to their introduction. So, I would ask you whether there is any way in which you can put pressure on the Government to bring this debate forward before Friday.

I accept all the arguments that both Members have put. The reality is that there was no perfectly synchronised solution possible to me. On balance, therefore, I've considered that the Senedd is best served by having a meaningful vote at the earliest opportunity of next week, rather than a debate without a vote at the earlier opportunity of today.

1. Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

We'll proceed now with the business as on the order paper. The first item is the questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services, and the first question is from Mark Isherwood.

COVID-19 Outbreaks in Hospitals

Mark Isherwood AC: 1. What guidance does the Welsh Government give to local health boards on the prevention of COVID-19 outbreaks in hospital settings? OQ55951

Vaughan Gething AC: Throughout the pandemic, the Welsh Government has issued a range of comprehensive guidance to support health boards in preventing COVID-19 outbreaks from occurring in hospital, and limiting the spread and severity of outbreaks when they do occur.

Mark Isherwood AC: In late July, I was contacted by a constituent whose husband with a non-COVID condition had been told by nurses that three COVID patients had been diagnosed on his ward at Wrexham Maelor Hospital. Only after my intervention was he moved to an adjacent, single-bed side ward. He did not catch COVID-19. Last month, I was contacted by a constituent stating that his father, who had a non-COVID condition, had been placed on the same ward for three and a half days, that, unknown to his father and family, some patients on the ward had COVID-19, and that is father was then transferred to the Robert Jones and Agnes Hunt Orthopaedic Hospital, Gobowen, where he had a positive COVID-19 test result and had developed a worsening cough that was causing concern. How do you therefore respond to the son, who asked, 'Why would you place an elderly man with orthopaedic issues on a ward with known COVID-19 patients? Why didn't they isolate him to prevent the risk of exporting the virus to a neighbouring hospital in Shropshire, and why, despite the front-line staff performing miracles, the backroom of the health board still cannot control cross-contamination, health and hygiene, but also the safety and management of patients within their safekeeping?'

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, unfortunately, as the Member knows, I'm not familiar with the individual circumstances, or indeed, as I understand from what he said, as the constituent tested positive in the Robert Jones and Agnes Hunt hospital, I'm not sure when the infection can be traced to. But there's a broader point here that the Member is trying to make, and that is about how successfully our hospitals are managing those patients who are positive, and it's why, when we publish information about COVID patients and COVID care, we have a confirmed recovery where they have tested positive, we have a suspected category, because even though we haven't got a confirmed test at that point in time, it matters how they're treated and managed to try to prevent the risk of infection to people who are COVID negative, and then we also have a category of people who are in recovery as well.
The reason why our nosocomial transmission group—and that's transmission between healthcare staff and others—has met and is led by our chief nursing officer and deputy chief medical officer is because we recognise the risks that exist. And if Members do have examples of where they're concerned that that hasn't been implemented properly, they should of course take that up with their local health board, and if they don't get a satisfactory answer, they should provide the details to me and I will happily investigate.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm hearing some real concerns about some staffing difficulties in hospitals in my region, including Prince Philip Hospital and particular problems in Glangwili in Carmarthen. I'm told—and this is anecdotal, Minister, so I can't be sure that this is the case—that there are nurses and doctors becoming ill with coronavirusand members of the public concerned as to whether they're contracting that in the hospital, whether they're becoming ill in the hospital, or whether they're contracting that in the community. I'm sure that you'll agree with me that our staff are working incredibly hard; they've done such amazing work so far. Is there anything more that you feel needs to be done to ensure that staff are not exposed to infections in hospital settings—obviously, it's not within your or the health board's control as to whether they become infected in the community—and is there any further support or guidance that you can provide the health boards in that particular area of concern with regard to staff sickness?

Vaughan Gething AC: On the last point, there is further, specific guidance the Government needs to give to the Hywel Dda health board. They're aware of the quite detailed advice that's been provided on a number of occasions. The most recent guidance that came out from that nosocomial transmission group went out on 6 November. But these are really difficult challenges to manage. In the overall picture, about 3 per cent of confirmed coronavirus cases come from transmission within healthcare. The challenge, though, is that we know this is a vulnerable group of the population, where people are there for in-patient treatment. So, the numbers are low, but the impact is significant, and it's the same when we look at transmission in other closed settings like care homes and prisons in particular. Again, the prisoner population and residents in care homes are a less healthy group within the population overall. And this is part of our challenge—about the difference between community transmission and staff who live in those communities also potentially being subject to transmission in those communities and then bringing the virus in, potentially, as well as nosocomial transmission.
I am, though, hoping to confirm where we're going to be with further testing for staff, not just in the targeted testing we've done around outbreaks, which is still part of our approach, but whether we can have a more general approach to testing, and I'm hoping to be able to make that announcement within the next few days. And there's a meeting between my officials and leads from across health boards tomorrow, and I want to be in a position to update the public and the Senedd in the next few days after that.

Mick Antoniw AC: Minister, the roll-out of a vaccine within days, as we're told, is obviously going to be very significant in terms of controlling the virus in the hospital environment. One of the aspects of this particular vaccine is that it has to be kept at -70 degrees centigrade, which means that managing it and containing the vaccine is going to be an extremely difficult technical task. Is it likely that vaccination in hospitals is going to be one of the high priorities when it is possible to roll-out the vaccine within Wales? Can you give us any more information on this?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. The vaccine roll-out will certainly help in preventing some forms of nosocomial transmission. It would also help with residents in care homes in terms of our ability to protect staff going to those care homes and those residents who are mobile. The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation has provided advice that all four chief medical officers have endorsed, and health Ministers met this morning in an early morning call, with colleagues from Scotland, Northern Ireland and England, and we've agreed, again, to follow the advice that the JCVI have provided on prioritisation. Within that, care home residents and really vulnerable people are at the top, the next group are people over the age of 80 and front-line staff in health and social care.
In the written statement that I have issued today, I have indicated that, because of the particular characteristics of the Pfizer vaccine, we don't think we're going to be able to safely take it to care homes. That means we're going to have a smaller number of vaccination centres we'll need to bring people to. Now, in practical terms, some care home residents therefore won't be within the first few weeks of delivery of that vaccine. We need to understand the safety data of moving that vaccine around in real time in more venues before we could potentially look at taking it elsewhere. Now, that is a challenge, and that means that care home residents, who are right at the top of the vulnerability list, we're not going to be able to deliver the vaccine to them. They'll get some protection though from us in our ability to prioritise staff who work in those environments, as well as our front-line healthcare staff.So, I'm still optimistic that this vaccine will make a real difference. But it's why I've been on the record and I say again that the Oxford vaccine gives us a much greater ability to take it out because that is a vaccine you can, essentially, store in a fridge, so with significantly fewer logistical challenges to deliver.

Diagnostic Services

David Rees AC: 2. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support diagnostic services across Wales? OQ55970

Vaughan Gething AC: Diagnostic services are a fundamental part of how we deliver health services. Our commitment to those services is outlined in the statements of intent for imaging and pathology, the endoscopy action plan for Wales and the national strategy for genomics. These are all supported by a number of national programmes.

David Rees AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. As you're aware, a fortnight ago, the cross-party group on cancer published its report on the single cancer pathway and the impact of COVID-19 on cancer services, and one of the recommendations was clearly to invest in diagnostic services, in equipment, settings and in people—people who are desperately needed. Macmillan Cancer Support has also highlighted the need for diagnostic services to get back to pre-pandemic levels and, in fact, higher than pre-pandemic levels so that any bottlenecks that have been created as a consequence of COVID-19 can actually be addressed. Now, to do all this, the Welsh Government needs to commit resources to that delivery. Will you now give the Welsh Government's commitment to ensuring that funding will be available to increase both equipment and workforce resources for diagnostic services in Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the Member's question. Of course, we rehearsed some of this last week in the short debate on the cross-party group on cancer's report. I do want to reiterate my thanks for not just the Member but Members across the Chamber who have highlighted this as an issue. It's a really important issue—to have the right equipment and, also, the right staff to be able to use that equipment to care for people in Wales. We've invested over £30 million in the last three years in large diagnostic equipment and about £15 million was invested over this year in diagnostics. Also, of course, I opened the National Imaging Academy Wales in Pencoed, and that is really helping usto have not just a new generation of people trained, but to keep them in Wales as well. In the coming days, I'll confirm training figures for a number of areas for staff across the health service, and that will include issues around diagnostics too. I also expect to be in a position in the coming days to confirm where we are with the further steps on the national endoscopy action plan as well. This isn't a matter of if we'll invest in the future of diagnostics; it's about how much we'll do. And I'll repeat the commitment I gave to the Member last week that we will respond properly and in writing to the cross-party group on cancer's report, including the sections on the diagnostic workforce.

Suzy Davies AC: Minister, you'll have heard before of the early diagnostic potential that we've seen in Baglan hospital, for example, when we're talking about cancers. I'm hoping that the report that David is referring to will make sure that the work there continues at pace. But I particularly wanted to ask you today about the role of dentists, because their role in spotting possible mouth cancers in the course of routine treatment is well known. The current guidance to dentists is understandably restrictive, but do you know by how much the initial detection figures for oral cancers have been affected since March, and would you consider revising guidance if there's been a noticeable drop?

Vaughan Gething AC: No, I don't have the specific figure for the drop in detection of oral cancers, but I recognise that dentists are about a great deal more than checking how many teeth you have and giving fillings. They make a huge difference to oral hygiene in a range of areas, including helping early warnings with oral cancer. So, it is an area of concern. I think there's a really important point for all of us about what comes after COVID, because we know there's been significant harm done already. We know we need to take further measures to keep more of us alive for the future. But we also know that we're putting off and we'll have to deal with a significant amount of healthcare challenges once we're out the other side of the pandemic. So, this is one of those areas, and we don't yet understand the fall-back about what that will be, when we'll need to plan for it and then deliver against it. Whenever it is safe and appropriate to do so, we will, of course, enable and encourage further healthcare provision to be provided. I don't want to lose sight of the point you made about the vague symptoms work that's been done in Neath Port Talbot Hospital, and the same in the Royal Glamorgan. Again, that's part of what I do expect us to see developing and delivering in the future, together with advice from our clinicians in the cancer network.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Today is such an encouraging day in terms of the announcement that the first vaccine has been approved. The way I see it is that we are at the beginning of the final chapter of this pandemic. But, of course, as we move towards the light at the end of the tunnel, then we do need to distribute this vaccine. We've already heard mention of the fact that the group on top of the priority list, along with health and workers, namely those living in care homes, won't be able to be vaccinated for reasons of practicality. That's a matter of concern, I have to say. Does the Minister share my concern that setting priorities and then saying immediately that the objective of reaching that priority group cannot be met undermines the confidence that people will have in the process for the distribution of this vaccine?

Vaughan Gething AC: No, I don't accept the Member's point at all; I think it's hugely important that we are following not just the professional advice but the advice on the safety and effectiveness of the vaccine. And it's important, again, to note that we're talking about this one vaccine, the Pfizer candidate vaccine that's been approved for supply today, which needs to be stored at -70 degrees centigrade. Then, to take that out, as you transfer it, if it's not in those conditions, it starts to thaw. And the problem there is that there are a limited number of storage facilities, and to transfer it from that storage facility to a centre for distribution and delivery means that it's thawing as you're moving it. If we're then trying to move it to more than 1,000 care homes across Wales, we can't be clear that it will still be effective for use in each of those homes, and it's not something that you can transfer in very small quantities. So, the challenge then is how do we safely deliver this and get it to as many people, in accordance with the priorities that exist. And that's exactly what we're doing.
It's also why I've been clear that the Oxford vaccine has lots of hope invested in it, because if that is approved for supply as well, that is something that you can deliver in a way that we're much more familiar with. So, when I have my flu vaccine, I go to a community pharmacy, I get a jab in the arm, and that's me done. There's not a complicated storage process; it's the same with general practice and others. The Oxford vaccine can be stored and moved in those circumstances, and so certainly that would make a much bigger difference, for not just care home residents, but other housebound groups of people, who will be right at the top of the vulnerability list. It's actually about protecting those people, which is why we've highlighted the practical challenge, and we'll continue to be honest and upfront with people about each of the choices we make.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for that response. No one, of course, would deny the challenges arising from the circumstances in which the vaccine has to be stored. My second question also refers to that distribution challenge; it's on ensuring that there is equal opportunity for people, wherever they are in Wales, to have the vaccination. It's been suggested to me in briefings from officials that this vaccine isn't the most appropriate, perhaps, for harder-to-reach areas—rural areas, for example. But, of course, we only have this one that's been approved at the moment. So, can we have an assurance that people will be treated equitably in terms of being able to access the vaccine, if they are in the particular target group, whether they're in Wrexham or Risca or Aberdaron or Aberdare?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I'm happy to give the Member the assurance that there'll be equity across the population, across geography, to make sure that there are opportunities for people to attend for vaccination. And I think that's another important point—to attend for vaccination. So, the NHS will contact people and invite them to come to a vaccination centre. So, people shouldn't ring pharmacies or GPs or their treating clinician asking when they'll get it; the NHS will contact you and will invite you to come forward and give you the opportunity. The first batch is 800,000 doses, so 400,000 people across the UK. We'll get our population share of that, and we then expect there to be further batches delivered within this year, with another set in the new year as well. Again, we had this reconfirmed in our conversation between the four nations this morning. So, we'll have equity within the UK about our supply. We've also agreed we want to start vaccinating at the same time as well, and we'll then be able to move on to make sure there's equity across the country, which is exactly what our plans in Wales will deliver, as you would expect.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for that assurance. It is important in order to ensure that Wales gets its share of every batch, not just the whole order, and that the various countries and the nations of the UK can start the process simultaneously.
We are awaiting approval of at least two further vaccines in the short term, hopefully. The Minister will be aware that the question of the reliability of the Oxford vaccine—AstraZeneca—has been the cause of some debate recently. We very much hope that it will be sufficiently effective for approval, but it may not be as effective as the other vaccinations. But—and this crucial—it may be cheaper. Can we have an assurance that decisions on which vaccines are to be used where, in terms of various geographical areas or various contexts, won't be made on the basis of cost?

Vaughan Gething AC: The only choices we'll make about vaccine supplies that come to Wales will be on the basis of how they're effectively delivered to protect people across the population, and the order of priority against people's clinical needs and benefit, taking into account the practical challenges of delivery of that vaccine. As we've just run through, the Pfizer vaccine presents a particular challenge. We'll wait and see what the regulator has to say about other vaccine candidates. Whilst it's promising, we've been really cautious and really clear not to try to give people an impression that everything will be resolved and it's all inevitable. We have to make sure the regulatory process is done in a way that people believe in the safety and the effectiveness of the vaccine, and we'll be clear with the public about those. It's really important to be clear that politicians don't decide whether a vaccine is safe; an independent regulator does that. Politicians and our national health service then have the responsibility to deliver that vaccine equitably across the population to, hopefully, deliver the future that all of us want to have beyond this current pandemic.

Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, today is a good news day, thankfully, after many dark days, to say the least. I commend everyone involved in the development of the vaccine, and vaccines plural, because hopefully there'll be others coming along in the not-too-distant future. Thank you for your statement this morning as well; it was a very detailed and thoughtful statement, I thought, which did add a lot of information that was beneficial, as elected Members, that we could go back to our constituents with. A point I'd like to raise with you is the terminology that you've used and, regrettably, the press are already starting to use, when you talk about this credit card-style card that will be given to you when you have your first appointment that will contain details of the type of vaccine that you've had and your recall date to have the second jab. As I say, I do note that already the press are starting to call that an ID card. Can you confirm that that is not an ID card, and it doesn't have any legal status, and it is merely an information card that will assist the person who is presented for vaccination to obviously have the follow-up, and once the follow-up vaccine has been administered, it will have no further status in law?

Vaughan Gething AC: This is not an ID card. It was never intended to be. It's not within our powers to do it. This is simply about reminding people when to return to have their next dose of the vaccine, to make sure they do receive proper coverage for themselves. And, of course, it'll make a difference to people they're in contact with. So, there's no other agenda here at all. This is just about making sure we make best use of the vaccine and the opportunity it provides for all of us.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I'm grateful for that clarification, because I certainly look at this as an appointment card, rather than an ID card. But, as I said, certain media outlets are already referring to it as an ID card, and I think that's regrettable. From your answer, I take it that it will have no legal status, this card.
If I could move on to allocation, you did address some of the points to the previous speaker about allocation, but this first batch that will come to us will have about 40,000 doses for Wales, which, cut in half, because it's a two-jab vaccine, obviously, is 20,000 individuals. That, obviously, is a very small starting point, but a welcome starting point. How will Government determine how that will be spread around Wales? I've heard about the priority groups, and I accept the logic of the priority groups, but with only 20,000 doses available, that's not even going to touch the sides when it comes to dealing with those priority groups, leave alone the geographical spread that needs to be taken into account as well. So, can you give us the train of thought that is behind the logic in arriving at how those first 20,000 doses will be allocated? Importantly, as we know that first tranche is 800,000 doses in total across the UK, of which, as I said, our allocation will be roughly 40,000, when will the next allocation be released for this particular vaccine? I'm assuming that's in the new year, but do we know the quantity and what we're dealing with?

Vaughan Gething AC: On the 800,000, you're right that our population share will be a little under 40,000 doses, so a little under 20,000 people can be protected, as they need two shots. That'll be dealt with by population size across health boards. There's been agreement on that at the vaccination programme board within Wales. So, again, we won't be saying that, for example, north Wales will have all of the first set of the vaccine and the rest of the country can wait. So, every part of the country will get some coverage.
The UK Government are procuring the vaccine for the whole UK, and we've agreed, in terms of fair shares, the population share that goes into the Barnett formula for each UK country. So, we will get a guaranteed percentage share of any supply into the UK. The confirmation, again, today is that after the first batch of 800,000, we then expect there to be more vaccines being delivered in December. We haven't had exact figures yet, but the indication is that we can expect there to be several million within December. But, as you know, because you need two shots to get coverage, with a population of 60-odd million in the UK, even if we do get, say, 2 million, it won't provide effective population coverage, and that's why we need to be really clear that we need vaccines plural, and more vaccine delivery to come into the UK for us to get that population coverage.
It also relies, of course, on the manufacture of the vaccine in Belgium, and regardless of what happens at the end of the year affecting trading and other relationships, the UK Government have said that if there are any issues about transfer and ports, then they'll fly the vaccine in as well, and they'll take the cost for that. Now, that's important, too, because I think people will be concerned otherwise about the potential supply of the vaccine. We expect quite a lot of this to come into the country overall, and then we expect to understand where we might be with the Oxford vaccine, as well. So, yes, we're taking account of all of those different aspects about our share in Wales and how this can be distributed across Wales. Whenever any new supply comes in, we'll get a share of it, and as that comes in, I fully expect to be updating Members and the public on the amount of supply we're having coming in.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I'm grateful for that answer, health Minister, in particular your assurance that there'll be additional millions of doses coming in by the end of December to the United Kingdom. What I'd like to check with you as well is the resilience of the NHS to deal with the vaccination programme and its everyday work. Last week, we spent considerable time looking at waiting times, and we know the waiting-time backlog that's built up. Can you give us assurance that, obviously, the NHS has the capacity to deliver this ambitious vaccination programme and there will be no distraction from the everyday need that the NHS has to treat the people of Wales in their everyday requirements? It would be my belief that we should have a Minister for vaccination here in Wales. I appreciate that's for the First Minister to decide. I'm not putting that observation to you, and I make no judgment on your performance. It's not a point I'm trying to score against you in any shape or form, but I just think the magnitude of what we're talking about and the length of time that this programme will take to deliver requires that laser-like focus as well as a dedicated focus on the NHS and the position that our NHS finds itself in at the moment. So I'd be grateful to understand the resilience that the NHS has to deliver this vaccination programme and no distraction from the important task of bringing down those waiting lists here in Wales.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think there were several different points. Just on the call that I know you've made on social media for a vaccines Minister, unless the First Minister decides otherwise, it's me. This is a public health crisis, this is an immunisation programme, you'd expect it to be delivered through here. It's no surprise that the chief medical officer is the senior official, together with Gill Richardson, who is a senior professional adviser to the chief medical officer and a former public health director in Wales, and that they're taking the leadership from a civil servant point of view and gathering together people in health boards who will then deliver. And I'm very grateful—I should make this point again—for the way that military planners have been involved in assisting our national health service. Throughout the pandemic, the military have played an outstanding role in supporting the Welsh Government in achieving our objectives to help keep Wales safe, and they're very much part of the team Wales approach for the delivery of the vaccine.
With respect, I don't think it's a realistic expectation to say that, through winter, with all of the normal pressures it has, and with the still significant challenges of a rising infection rate from coronavirus, with all the harm that will bring, I'm afraid, that we could then also expect there to be a significant vaccination programme and to be able to eat into the waiting times backlog as well. We're in the very awful business of prioritisation, and if we can't regain control and turn back the tide of coronavirus, then even if we were not vaccinating people at the same time, we may be forced to make more choices about non-essential activity, and there's harm that comes with that, and I recognise that very well. So that's the position that we're currently in, with a vaccination programme on top. This is obviously a top priority, so we'll have to deal with those necessary priorities. I do hope, though, it reinforces for the public the need to see the vaccination programme that is going to start in the very near future as an opportunity to get to that future intact and not to let go of all the sacrifices that have been made, and not to act ahead of the vaccine as if there is no need to carry on with the unfortunate and unpleasant restrictions that we're living with, with the social distancing and the way that we can't have human contact in the way that is so precious to us all. But to hold our nerve and to keep going, follow the restrictions, and do what we should do for a period of months longer, and then we'll have a different future and we certainly will then have a significant backlog to address here in Wales and, indeed, in every country in the UK.

Question 3, Mike Hedges.

I don't see Mike Hedges there, so I'll move on to question 4.

Question 3 [OQ55950] not asked.

Question 4, Mark Reckless.

Inter-governmental Discussions

Mark Reckless AC: 4. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the effectiveness of intergovernmental discussions regarding the COVID-19 response? OQ55979

Vaughan Gething AC: I have had regular meetings with my health ministerial colleagues, including one at 06.30 this morning, across the UK since the pandemic began. The First Minister has been clear that he would like a regular, reliable rhythm of four-nation meetings so we can learn more from each Government’s response to the pandemic.

Mark Reckless AC: It's good to hear of the Minister's early start today. Could I feed back to him that a number of my constituents have been in touch to say how pleased they are that there's a UK-wide four-Government approach to the Christmas period for COVID restrictions, and they just wonder why can't that UK-wide response happen more generally?

Vaughan Gething AC: We've sought to have more UK-wide responses than not, and it's not in our gift to convene COBRA meetings,I'm afraid. I know Mr Reckless regularly tries to claim that the real problem with not having a more four-nation approach is somehow that the Welsh Government is deliberately running away from an agreement that is there if only we would take it. It's actually about the engagement across all four countries. So, health Ministers have met regularly, but the leadership meetings between First Minister and the Prime Minister: that is the choice that the Prime Minister has made, not to convene those meetings. Michael Gove has chaired most of the COBRA meetings that we've had in the recent past. I think it's for the Prime Minister to explain why he's chosen not to take part in that process, which I think is unusual, given the impact of the pandemic that we are all living through, but we look forward to a grown-up and continuing four-nation conversation, as we believe that there are many strengths in the union if we are prepared to learn from each other.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Minister, I agree that where we can take a four-nation approach, then of course, we should; but sometimes I'm glad we don't, because we were shocked to read the conclusions of the National Audit Office's report on the lack of transparency in the way the UK Government has procured PPE and other key contracts during the coronavirus, and then subsequent revelations about multi-million pound deals with few checks and balances that have led to COVID windfalls for friends of Government Ministers and friends of governing party MPs. So, I welcome your recent statement about how PPE has been procured here in Wales, and can I seek your assurance that we will not, in Wales, be drawn into any appearance of dodgy dealings or fast-track funding for friends, as we seem to have seen in Westminster?

Vaughan Gething AC: I issued a statement last week making very clear that we have procured PPE successfully and in accordance with the rules and with proper propriety. There are obvious questions—not from left-leaning publications, but from 'The Times' and others, and those will need to be answered. I fully expect that not just the National Audit Office report for England will have further attention paid to it, but more people, I think, will welcome the reassurance I can give that there are no dodgy deals when it comes to PPE in Wales, and I'm very, very proud of the way that team Wales—in particular our shared-services team—have gone about procuring successfully and in a completely transparent way PPE to service the needs of our front-line health and social care staff.

Sight Loss

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 5. Will the Minister make a statement on sight-loss treatment in north Wales? OQ55966

Vaughan Gething AC: Throughout the pandemic, optometric practices and hospital eye care departments have been open for essential and urgent eye care. Services have been impacted by the pandemic, however. Health boards are working hard to ensure patients who are at risk from sight loss are treated in as timely a manner as possible.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. Ten months have proceeded without monthly data on ophthalmology out-patients being published. Four days ago, BBC Wales disclosed that Mrs Helen Jeremy has been left blind after treatment delayed due to the pandemic. Mrs Jeremy lives in Bridgend, but many are facing a crisis in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. Now, RNIB have warned that thousands more people in Wales are at risk of irreversible sight loss because of these treatment delays. An FOI by BBC Wales to all health boards found more than 33,000 people at risk of sight loss were simply waiting too long for treatment. Forty per cent of hyper reflective focipatients were waiting beyond their clinically safe target date as of May 2020, and the number of people waiting more than nine months for cataract surgery has quadrupled. So will you, Minister, act on the calls of the director of RNIB Cymru and provide sufficient resources to make sure that these people are seen and their eyesight is saved?

Vaughan Gething AC: I recognise that delayed treatment in eye care can lead to irreversible sight loss. So, this isn't about the ability to recover or needing more radical treatment to recover; it can be that the sight loss takes place and you can't reverse it. As you'll know, before the pandemic, we'd started on a reform process around not just the measures, but to then drive better clinical prioritisation and behaviour, and it's actually highlighted, I think, a more open understanding of what our lists show, because previously, you could have achieved a target without necessarily getting to the people in the greatest need, or at the greatest risk of suffering sight loss. So, our planned care board is already bringing people together, including the RNIB,and I think it's fair to say that the challenge they're making in public is one they're also making in the meetings they have with officials. It's really important we continue to work with them about improving sight loss services, and this will be a really significant challenge through the pandemic and then after it as well.
If nothing else, the pandemic has reiterated the need for reform with a purpose within our healthcare system. The reforms we've started, I think, are still the right ones, but it's about how we drive them forward with an even greater sense of pace and urgency, and the real can-do spirit that has highlighted and characterised the response by the national health service during the pandemic needs to carry into the recovery phase. So, I look forward to continuing to work with the RNIB and I'm sure they'll continue to challenge in both the private engagements they have as well as their public commentary, as you would expect.

COVID-19 Vaccines

Andrew RT Davies AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the distribution of COVID-19 vaccines across Wales? OQ55958

Angela Burns AC: 7. Will the Minister outline how Welsh health boards are preparing for the roll-out of the first wave of COVID-19 vaccines? OQ55972

Vaughan Gething AC: Presiding Officer, I understand you've given your permission for questions 6 and 7 to be grouped.
Health and social care sectors in Wales, with key stakeholders, have worked with the Welsh Government to plan the delivery of the COVID-19 vaccines since May. Priority groups identified by the joint committee on vaccination and immunisation will receive the vaccine now, but approval has been received from the regulator, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. In your statement his morning, obviously you highlighted what will be critical to delivery of the vaccine programme, whichever vaccine it's going to be—which will be the staff and the individuals charged with undertaking the work on the ground. You said training exercises have been undertaken with various staff across Wales. Can you assure us that those exercises have taken account of the various differences between the vaccines? What is the initial feedback over the total workforce that might be required to do a national vaccination programme in the coming weeks and months ahead?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I can't give you a figure, because that would mean plucking a figure out of the air for the total workforce, but what we do recognise is that we think that we'll be able to move to a position where we can actually train people who aren't healthcare staff to be able to deliver some of the vaccines, and yes, the training does take account of the characteristics of each vaccine, because as I've said, the vaccine characteristics are different, and the training will be both about the transfer and the storage as well as the delivery. So, I think you can take assurance from the level of detail that's in the statement that points out the work that's already been done by professionals across the sector, and that this is going to be a significant priority.
You'd expect that similar statements could going be made by the other Governments in the UK, because actually, there's been lots of sharing of information between all four NHSs, all four Governments, on what we're trying to achieve. So, I'm not just hopeful, but positive, I think, with good reason, about our ability to deliver a vaccine programme and to start within a matter of days in time with the rest of the UK, and to be able to deliver that successfully across the population. Our challenge will then be how we manage to get the vaccine into the country and then how quickly we can keep up with the pace of demand, because I think most people will be very keen to receive protection from the vaccine.

Angela Burns AC: Minister, first of all, thank you very much indeed for your statement this morning. It was really informative, one of the best statements, to be honest, that I've seen for a long time from the Government, and it's answered a huge number of the questions that I had. But I do have a couple of little points I just wanted to raise with you. The first was that, in your statement, you say that the time between the vaccines needs to be four weeks. On Friday, I was with a group of others who were assured that, actually, it was a three-week interval. So, can you just clarify that, please?
Could you also please just give us a little bit more detail about how Welsh Government will manage the recall system for the second dose? Because although I understand the Welsh immunisation service is progressing well, it is still, according to information I've been given, in bits; it's still not quite all there together. We then have to recruit an awful lot of staff and make sure that that information works really well and that we can persuade people to come back for that second vaccine.
And really finally, I understand that recent tests of the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine have found that having a half dose followed by a full dose is actually far more efficient than having two full doses. This, of course, will increase the amount of vaccine available to Wales and to the UK, and I wondered if you had any update or had any thoughts you could add to that. Thank you very much.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think there were three questions within that, the first about the time between doses. The advice I've had is four weeks. We'll continue to examine whether it can be shortened to enable us to have more rapid delivery of both the doses of the current Pfizer vaccine that has been given approval for supply.
On the Welsh immunisation service, as I said in the statement, that can automatically schedule second doses and send out appointment letters, and so we will be able to send people that reminder. And of course, they'll also, as was discussed with your colleague, have a physical reminder, with an appointment card as well. So, there will be opportunities to remind people. And again, because this is going to be such a significant exercise, I think it will be very difficult to avoid the wider public communication about the reality of the vaccine delivery, and I'm confident that, not just in the first few people who are having the vaccine, but then the first few people who are then coming back for their second dose, they'll be interested in those, and then, in the week following, when they should then have the fullest coverage and protection, to understand what that has meant for the services that they either work in, or how they're able to live their lives.
I'm sorry, I appear to have forgotten your third question, because you asked three in a row.

Angela Burns AC: The Oxford vaccine and it being a one and a half dose.

Vaughan Gething AC: The Oxford vaccine, yes. The Oxford vaccine—well, again, you've seen the public news about this. It was delivered by accident. In one stage of the trial, they delivered a half shot by accident, but they found that that appears to have given a greater effectiveness level, a greater level of immunity, which is good news, and there are times where things happen that are fortunate as opposed to planned, and this would appear to be one of those. So, that's part of the safety data the MHRA will look at. And there will be a different challenge, though, because whilst the amount of supply means they should be able to create more vaccine, it may just change the nature in which they have to package and deliver things. But these are practical challenges that I'm sure we'll be able to get through with manufacturers across the UK as well. And again, that vaccine, if it is at the higher level of its potential in terms of its effectiveness, then it can be delivered in a way that makes it not just cheaper but much easier to deliver around the country. That is something that would really help in population coverage, but I'm very grateful for the fact that we have today's welcome news and, again, ask people to stick with the difficulties that we're all living through for a few more months, and then we can enjoy a much greater degree of normality in the future.

Health Protection Measures in Blaenau Gwent

Alun Davies AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on health protection measures in Blaenau Gwent? OQ55955

Vaughan Gething AC: Further to the national guidelines introduced following the firebreak, the Gwent-wide incident management team has developed a comprehensive action plan for community intervention. All of our partners on the ground are working hard together to reduce rates of infection, and we all have a responsibility to support them in their efforts.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you for that, Minister, and I join the tone of exchanges this afternoon, where we all welcome the news about the vaccine being made available, and we look forward to that radically changing the health situation in Blaenau Gwent and elsewhere. But in the meantime, of course, today we've seen numbers of the infection that demonstrate that Blaenau Gwent is again near the top of these rates in Wales. And I recognise what the Government is doing in terms of regulations, and we debated that yesterday; we'll debate it again next week. But the regulations alone I don't believe are going to be sufficient to deliver the sort of reduction in numbers that we require and we need in Blaenau Gwent to keep people safe.
And I'd like to ask the Minister what consideration he is giving to the sort of mass testing that we're seeing across our county borders in Cynon and in Merthyr, and also greater enforcement. I think one of the frustrations that's come through over recent days is that people are working really, really hard to stay within the regulations, to ensure that they're keeping people safe, but that enforcement isn't taking place in a sufficiently robust way to ensure that everybody does that. So, what can the Welsh Government do to ensure that we have a more holistic approach to policy in places like Blaenau Gwent?

Vaughan Gething AC: We are certainly trying to take a holistic approach with all the tools and capacity that we have available to us, and the reality is that there are limits on that capacity in different places. So, I know—and I've said this before and I'll say it again—that environmental health officers, employees of local government, have been a huge part of keeping Wales safe. They've been at the front line of enforcement, but also engagement with businesses, to help support them to improve their practice. There is a limited number of environmental health officers and, if we could, we'd significantly expand the workforce, but there aren't lots of extra people.
What we did do—and there's credit to local government leaders and the Minister, Julie James—is we agreed to have a process where people agreed to recruit extra people together to try to make sure that 22 authorities weren't competing with each other to get the same people. But, even with that, those officers are exhausted—they really haven't stopped. So, I'm grateful to them, but I recognise that we can't simply demand more of them and tell them to keep going and to run faster because we need them to. So, there's a challenge here in what we're able to do, and I think you're right when you say that the rules and regulations are not enough on their own—they're certainly not, and that's why the choices we make are so important. So, the choices that you make in how you live your life, the choices that your constituents and my constituents make about who they see, how often they see them, what environment they see them in, will make a really big difference as to whether we can help to reduce those rates down, not just in Blaenau Gwent, Torfaen, Merthyr and the Cynon, but right across the country, because the overall rate for Wales is over 220 today, and that should give all of us real cause for concern. It's certainly a matter of great concern to me.
And I do think that we will positively learn from both Merthyr and Cynon. The chief medical officer has already asked for some reflective work to be done on the early experience, what we've learnt from both Liverpool and Sheffield. We already know that we're getting more people come through from the more advantaged populations—the wealthier groups of people are coming through in larger number and proportion—so, actually, we still need to do something about that to make sure that we're not seeing, if you like, the inverse care law taking place in front of us.
But also I'm really keen to learn from the testing around schools, because the three secondary schools in Merthyr have been really positive about wanting their students and their staff to get tested, so we'll get more of a whole-population segment with that testing, and the further education college too. People can, again, learn from that. I've talked with the health board and others about the possibility, if mass testing were to carry on, of whether Blaenau Gwent and Torfaen would be the next candidates, but we expect the vaccine to come within days. Our target date is that we want to be in a position to start that immunisation by Tuesday next week. So, we're going to see hope coming down towards us, but it does mean that we all need to do the right thing for a few months more, and, if we can do that, then we can look forward to a much better future, to learn more about the length of time that the vaccines will give us. But once we've had whole-population coverage once, we will have more confidence about doing it again, with the long, difficult road of recovery that faces all of us when the pandemic is finally over.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, pubs and restaurants have done an incredible job of adapting and introducing health protection measures into their businesses and at speed during this pandemic, such as hand sanitisers, social distancing and track and trace recording. Will you join me in thanking them for the hard work that they've put in to making us all safer?And do you agree that the banning of the sale of alcohol in these relatively safe environments will force people to buy alcohol in supermarkets, drink at home, possibly in numbers that exceed Welsh Government guidelines, with the risk of spreading the virus further?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I am tremendously grateful to people right across the hospitality industry for the way they have changed and adapted. And I have real sympathy for the incredibly difficult time that they face. We wanted to leave the firebreak with a pattern that would get us through to the end of the year, but I said, as the First Minister said, that, if the rates change, we may need to act again. And as I've just said in response to Alun Davies's question, the rates in Wales today are over 220 per 100,000. So, the opportunity to go through to the end of the year without further intervention is not available to us, and we then had to decide what to do.
Look, I know that it isn't easy to turn a profit in the hospitality sector. I know that, often, these are small businesses, family businesses, and people have a very personal connection to their business. I also know that this is a sector that employs lots of younger people, who've had many of the ways in which they live their lives and enjoy their lives significantly affected by the pandemic, and it is not a choice that Ministers have gone into glibly or with a care-free attitude. Eluned Morgan, who's in the Chamber with us today, has had many of those conversations with the hospitality sector. She's been our lead Minister working with the sector, and it's difficult. And we all understand why they're so upset, and why wouldn't they be? We're having significant restrictions introduced into that sector, and we know that that will cause harm. And yet we also know that doing nothing isn't an option. The evidence we have is that tier 3-style restrictions in England and Scotland have the best prospect of controlling coronavirus. The significant difference in terms of where Wales is today and tier 3 in England or Scotland is hospitality. And you'll have heard the chief medical officer on the radio this morning talking about the fact that Wales, at present, is an outlier in having a much more generous approach when it comes to hospitality and alcohol, and it wasn't tenable to carry on in that way. And the evidence is there, from experience within the British isles—so, Governments and countries that we can compare ourselves much more easily with—where those restrictions have had an impact. We shared that information with them; I know Eluned Morgan spent time talking with them, not just through the last few weeks, but the last few days, in running through the evidence with them. There's reluctance, yes, and why wouldn't they be reluctant? But there is some understanding that we do need to act.
I don't enjoy standing up and advocating restrictions to the way people live their lives and the way businesses operate, but I'm afraid the evidence is there that, if we don't do this, if we don't adopt the evidence of what's worked in other parts of the UK, then we'll be having a different conversation in a few weeks about why the Government, despite that evidence, despite the evidence from the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies and the paper that we'll shortly publish from our own technical advisory cell—why we chose not to act. There'll be a different toll for us to look at then, and it's not one that I'm prepared to sign up to.

And, finally, question 9—Joyce Watson.

COVID-19 Rates in West Wales

Joyce Watson AC: 9. What discussions has the Minister had with local health officials and county councillors regarding COVID-19 case rates in west Wales? OQ55982

Vaughan Gething AC: My officials receive regular situation reports from the local incident management teams and are in regular contact with health protection professionals supporting this region. I and fellow Ministers receive regular updates through these channels. Ministers are engaged, where necessary, in local decisions. I, of course, also meet with, on a regular basis, people from across the health service, and I also have the opportunity to join the local government Minister in some of her regular conversations with local government leaders.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for that answer. There have been a number of incidents recently that illustrate just how precarious this situation is, how quickly local health services can be overtaken by events, and why firm action to control the virus is vital. More than a dozen schools, nurseries and a college campus had to close in Pembrokeshire and Ceredigion after localised spikes, and a number of patients have tested positive for COVID-19 at Llandovery and Amman valley hospitals. On that situation, I understand that quite a few staff at both sites have also tested positive and are self-isolating, which has led to significant constraints on that workforce. Can you provide an update on that, please, and help to reassure my constituents that the two sites are continuing to provide safe care to their patients?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. To be fair, the Member has raised this with me before, and I thank her for the opportunity to put something on the record today. Hywel Dda University Health Board has announced it will transfer patients who are currently being treated in Llandovery Community Hospital to the Amman Valley Hospital. They've approved the temporary measure after considering a number of options and working with stakeholders, local general practitioners, the community health council and elected officials.After that, there will be no in-patients in Llandovery. That will allow them to not just deep clean the site but also to then reopen it as a green site as well. So, they're actively considering how the hospitals can provide the best positive care for people with COVID-19 and those people who do not have COVID-19. I expect that the Member, in her capacity as a regional Member, will receive a direct update with more detail on those plans direct from the health board. If that doesn't happen, please do return to me and I'll make sure it will.

Thank you, Minister, for those answers.

2. Questions to the Minister for Mental Health, Wellbeing and Welsh Language

The next item is questions to the Minister for Mental Health, Well-being and the Welsh Language, and the first question is from Nick Ramsay.

The Mental Health and Well-Being of Young People

Nick Ramsay AC: 1. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government's strategy to support the mental health and well-being of young people in south Wales? OQ55956

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Improving the mental health and well-being of children and young people requires a multi-agency and cross-Government approach. Our 'Together for Mental Health' delivery plan 2019-22, recently refreshed in the light of COVID-19, sets out how we will work on this with our partners.

Nick Ramsay AC: Diolch, Gweinidog. I'm pleased you mentioned that strategy and the need to keep policies updated with the ongoing pandemic. The lockdowns have clearly had an increasing impact on people's mental health, including young people. According to a recent report published by the Samaritans in England in October, people who self-harm face unreasonable barriers to accessing mental health services, and they are caught between being deemed too high risk for primary mental health services, while not ill enough to access secondary mental health services. We know that this is also the case in Wales, and this disproportionately affects the younger generation. What discussions have you had with groups like the Samaritans, and other stakeholders in this area, and what plans are you going to put in place to ensure that this growing problem is dealt with?

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch, Nick. Just to make it clear that we do have regular meetings with the Wales Alliance for Mental Health, who are the representatives of the third sector in relation to mental health, and of course, they do keep us updated as to what they see is the situation on the ground. And I'm very keen to make sure that I have a second view of what's going on; obviously, I get the information directly from our health boards, but I'm very keen to make sure that that is cross-referenced and cross-checked in terms of people's real-life experience.
In relation to the tier 4 support, one of the things that we're clear about is that we do need to see improvements in that area. And that's why I have made sure that our officials meet fortnightly to check what the information is, what the updated information is, in terms of numbers of people who are able to access, and those, more importantly, who are not able to access that support. I've been asking for a weekly update from my officials to make sure that that situation is something that we can keep abreast of. Just in terms of the tier 4 support, just this week, my understanding is there's only one person who's failed to access that tier 4 support.

Delyth Jewell AC: Our young people have faced so many strains this year, uncertainty about exams, not being able to see friends, their normal routines just disappearing, and we know, as has been said, that the pandemic will have taken an inevitable toll on their mental health. But the most recent figures on NHS spending for 2018-19 show that less than 1 per cent of NHS funding was spent on children and young people's mental health. Per head of population, children and young people's mental health received just £18.17 per person that year, and this when we know from Mind that one in four people will experience a mental health problem in any given year. Clearly, our young people need far more investment in their well-being. So, will you assure me that the forthcoming Welsh budget commits resources that will meet the scale and the ambition needed to improve services and support?

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Delyth. Just to make it clear that we already spend more on mental health than any other aspect of the health service—£700 million a year. And of course, in response to COVID we've topped that up by almost £10 million, to make sure that we are responding to the pressures that we know in particular are there amongst young people. We've heard the information that's come from the Children's Commissioner for Wales, but also the Youth Parliament has given us some very useful insights into the levels of anxiety that young people are facing. And that's why what we've done is to really focus attention in particular on, first of all, that whole-school approach, where we've given an additional £5 million this year, to make sure that we can give that really early intervention, to stop the problems from accumulating. And also now what we're doing is we're trying to make sure that that whole-school approach fits into a broader whole-systems approach, so that it can connect with the NHS. The key thing as far as I'm concerned, and certainly the information that we've got from the Wolfson centre, which is the expert centre in Cardiff University, which specialises in the mental health of young people, is that they are telling us that 80 per cent of the problems in relation to mental health start when people are young or when they're children. So, certainly, that is something that we're looking at, to make sure that we put that emphasis in the right place, with very early intervention, tier 0 and tier 1 support.

Vikki Howells AC: Minister, I know that you will be aware of the huge pressure placed on CAMHS, the child and adolescent mental health services. It's been this way for several years, before the additional pressures placed on our young people by the pandemic.Much of this is due to young people being referred into the system when their mental health needs are mild or moderate, which is the most sensible and important time, of course, to seek referrals for support, but a problem for the CAMHS system because it's designed only to support those with serious mental health issues. So, could you please provide us with some more information about those early interventions that you referenced in your previous answer, to Delyth Jewell,and how those early interventions can ensure that our young people are supported in a timely and appropriate way to ensure that their mental health does not deteriorate further?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, diolch, Vikki. I think we've got to be really clear that not all mental health issues are medical issues. There are many issues that are due to social problems, people suffering problems in relationships, and I think what we need to do is to make sure that we intervene very early, as you're suggesting, to make sure that young people have the capacity to deal with those difficult situations. And that doesn't necessarily mean a medical intervention, which is why that whole-school approach, I think, is the right way to go about this.
You'll be aware that the young person's mental health toolkit has now been published on Hwb, and that really gives support to young people to make sure that they can really focus in on the issues that matter to them—anxiety, low mood, bereavement, even coronavirus information. And I think it's really important also for us to make sure that they're aware of the helplines that are available, the C.A.L.L. helpline is something that of course is there, but also now, for those who are over 16, we have this SilverCloud, which is an online approach to cognitive behavioural therapy, and I do hope that people will use the opportunity. Maybe sometimes, they don't want people to know about their issues, and they can do that in a way that doesn't mean that they have to attract the attention of their teachers. They can do it quietly and privately, and that option is now available to them as well.

The Tourism Industry

Mark Reckless AC: 2. What discussions has the Minister had with the tourism industry in Wales regarding COVID-19 regulations? OQ55978

The Deputy Minister will need to unmute.

Can Dafydd Elis-Thomas be unmuted? Can anybody help us at this point?

Deputy Minister, we can hear you now, thank you.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Diolch yn fawr. My ministerial colleague and I established a tourism taskforce at the outset of the pandemic, meeting weekly to discuss all items affecting the industries, including the impact of COVID regulations. We have a parallel series of meetings with hospitality, events and wedding stakeholders.

Mark Reckless AC: Is there a danger that some of our measures—pubs that can't serve alcohol—and particularly enforcing a border to stop people from England coming to Wales, even when we may have had higher levels of incidence, may have an impact in future years of people who may be less willing or interested in visiting Wales in light of that? And what can we do to try and mitigate any such effect?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Well, I mitigate this on a weekly basis, because I meet with my UK colleagues in all the sectors for which I have responsibility. Visit Wales has worked very closely with UKHospitality, the Wales Tourism Alliance and the Welsh Independent Restaurant Collective. All these representative bodies of Welsh tourism are regularly in contact with the rest of the United Kingdom. Obviously, I take a very active interest in what Northern Ireland and Scotland and England are doing in these areas, but I also work within the devolved legislation and the responsibilities of Welsh Government, of which I am proud to be a Minister.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. Will the Minister provide an update on the legal steps that the Welsh Government is taking, or not taking, in response to the decision of the administrative court in the case of Driver v. Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you, Siân. I can confirm that the Welsh Government won't be taking a position on the Driver case that is happening in the Rhondda Cynon Taf area. FootnoteLink

Gwybodaeth ychwanegol at y Cyfarfod Llawn

Siân Gwenllian AC: I'm very grateful to the Minister for putting on the record today that you will not be challenging basis 2(g) of the decision. It will be a relief for pupils, parents and teachers in Rhondda Cynon Taf who have fought for the right to continue with the Welsh-medium education journey within a reasonable distance of their homes. I do very much hope that the council too will reconsider its position. This adjudication is a major step forward. I would like to hear from you, therefore, now that this is in place, how you are going to inform public bodies and others about the precedents arising from the adjudication, so that bodies do work consistently in accordance with the Government's vision for the future.
And, if I could remain with education, the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy is clear that we need to transform the way in which the Welsh language is taught in all schools in order to reach the targets of the strategy, including in English-medium schools, and this is crucially important. The Welsh Language Commissioner highlights the fact that there hasn't been much work ongoing in terms of the Welsh language continuum, and, as a solution, he has recommended that there should be a requirement included in the curriculum Bill, which is currently going through our processes, for Welsh Ministers to introduce a code of practice on the teaching of Welsh. Would you support that recommendation?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Just to make it clear that it is a requirement on all parts of local government to ensure that they do take into consideration the need to strengthen what's offered in terms of Welsh-medium education in their areas, so I do hope that all of the local authorities across Wales will understand that responsibility. And just to make it clear, in terms of teaching in schools that don't offer Welsh as a first language, I do accept that a lot of work needs to be done in this area, and that's why I have weekly meetings with my team, and this is something that is on the agenda on a weekly basis, because I do think that we need to move forward on this.
What we've done recently, just to be clear, is we've worked and we've had discussions with the National Centre for Leaning Welsh. I think that they have a lot of experience, particularly now with the coronavirus, in terms of online learning, and I think that there are things that we can learn there, particularly if the skills that we hope to see in the schools aren't available, and I do think that we do need to take advantage of that capability that exists in the centre. And that's why what we hope to do is work with them, and I've had discussions with the Minister for Education on that subject.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I don't think I heard you confirm that you were in favour of introducing a code of practice in relation to the curriculum Bill, but we will return to this issue at some future date, I'm confident of that. Introducing a code of practice on the teaching of Welsh in the curriculum would be an important step forward. And I do believe that there is a consensus developing across parties on the need for a statutory code, and hopefully we can work together to secure that.
To conclude, I would like to touch upon the vulnerable positions of two of our important organisations, namely the Urdd and the National Library of Wales. The Urdd announced yesterday that they will continue to operate and innovate, as best they can, in terms of a national eisteddfod, but there won't be one held in the traditional way. And, in the meantime, other work streams of the Urdd, such as the residential camps, remain closed and that leads to a loss of income. According to the Urdd's evidence to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee the organisation has lost half its workforce and could face debts of up to £18 million. I do know that your Government has provided £3.1 million in financial support for the Urdd, but is that sufficient, that would be my question.
And, in the case of the national library,they received £0.25 million in support from Government recently, but that was after you clawed back £200,000 from the library at the beginning of the pandemic. So, what assessment have you, as Minister, made of whether the Government's financial support is adequate to support these crucial organisations? Would you agree that we can’t allow bodies that have contributed so much to the national and linguistic life of Wales to simply wither away?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Could I just state clearly that I’m very aware of the difficulties that the Urdd is facing? Of course, it’s a great shame as the Urdd have done everything that we’ve asked of them over the years to not be so reliant on Government funding. They know how to spend and raise money, but just not in this coronavirus period, and that’s why we have already, as you’ve mentioned, given them a great deal of funding to help them through this difficult period. But, of course, there is still a difficult period ahead and that’s why it’s a great shame that they’ve had to cancel the Urdd Eisteddfod. But if I know anything about the way in which the Urdd works, they will create something completely new that will raise the spirits of the nation during the period when they would normally have held the Urdd Eisteddfod. Of course, we’re keeping an open mind in terms of what’s possible in terms of practical support in the future.
The same is true of the national library of course. This, of course, is an institution of vital importance to the nation. I think that the library is aware that they have work to do in terms of reorganising the way in which they operate, but we do recognise, particularly after the recent report, that the budgetary position is a very difficult one. The budget will be announced before too long and we will see what happens in that regard. Thank you.

The Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you. Minister, following on from a question to the health Minister just now, I was very encouraged to hear that you're going out and talking to small businesses in your capacity. I want to talk to you about mental health and well-being, particularly of our small-business owners at the moment, who have been put through so much during this pandemic, creating heightened anxiety and mental health worries. They've really stepped up to the plate and delivered in terms of adapting their businesses and making them coronavirus safe, yet we are now seeing them battered again by these latest regulations coming into effect this Friday. Judging from e-mails and conversations I've had with small-business owners, pubs, bars and restaurants across south-east Wales in my region, there is great anxiety and depression, and that's very clear and very apparent in those e-mails and the conversations I've had, which majorly concerns me and, I'm sure, you. Research is also suggesting that these people aren't reaching out for help. So, what action is this Government taking, and you, Minister, to reach out to these business owners during these particularly tough time to ensure that they get all the mental health support that they need? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Of course, we are intensely aware of the mental health situation and we've put some significant support in, in particular to support employees. But you're absolutely right that we need to think about the business owners who've put money on the line, who've put their livelihoods on the line and are seeing those being threatened with the coronavirus.
We have discussed this in relation to the tourism industry and, as a consequence of that, I did discuss this with the economy Minister to see if we could put something specific in place. But, as you say, part of the problem here—and I'm afraid that, very often, it's men who don't come forward—is that we need to make sure that they're aware of the services that are available from the Welsh Government in these spaces. So, I will continue my discussions with the economy Minister to see how we can get this information out. But you'll be aware that a leaflet was sent recently to every household in Wales and there was some information in that leaflet on the support that was available in relation to mental health from the Welsh Government.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you for that, Minister. I think the lack of money is one of the root causes of many mental health problems, as we know.
I'd like to talk to you about the mental health of children and young people. Schools act as a leveller, a level playing field, where, wherever possible, children are equal in that environment in terms of equipment, the clothes they wear, access to information. As you're already aware, young people have been going off in droves in whole year groups recently, especially across my region in certain council areas, so they're heavily reliant on home schooling. I'm concerned, following a conversation I had with one of the headteachers of a comprehensive school in my region, that she highlighted the fact that a number of children still couldn't access a device at home to enable them to do online learning and their lessons at home. This clearly is very worrying and has a mental health impact on those children. The Government, to be fair, has given lots of money to councils in order for them to get devices to children, but they're still, obviously, not getting to the right children, or to enough children, as the headteacher outlined to me yesterday, and this is a barrier to them getting the home-school learning that they need when they're off, obviously for health reasons and safety reasons. Please could you look into this, Minister, alongside the education Minister, as, clearly, pupils' mental health and anxiety will be affected because of this? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. I think it's been a really anxious time for any young person, in particular when it comes to schoolwork and, in particular, those who were planning to sit exams. Of course, we have given substantial support as a Government to local authorities and, through them, to schools, to those people who haven't been able to access education online. Part of the additional problem, of course, is that you can give them the hardware but, actually, you need to make sure that the broadband coverage is in place and that they are able to access support in that way. So, I know that the Minister for Education is very aware of the situation, and if you've got examples of areas where it's not possible for people to gain access, I think it would be useful to send those on to the education Minister.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Okay, thank you, Minister. Just a really quick one, before I ask my last question, is that, in a school in south-east Wales, they sent regular questionnaires to see what the biggest barrier was to home-school learning, and it came back that actual devices, not broadband et cetera, were the biggest problem, because when there's a parent at home, or a brother or sister at home, using devices as well, they are deviceless, so to speak. So, it's about getting devices to those people particularly, but I'm happy to send you further information.Talking about getting help, I want to talk to you about getting help to those who really need it. There's a peer mentorship programme—I'm not sure whether you're aware of it—which now has evidenced benefits. There's such a programme in the Aneurin Bevan health board that has many successes. It's so reassuring for people across the board with all sorts of mental health issues to be able to talk to someone who's been through similar experiences, as they have. And that's what this programme is all about. Also, I saw, when talking to the nurses and patients, that the families benefited hugely from talking to people who had been through similar experiences as well and found it very reassuring to see that those patients came out the other side. A drop-in rehabilitation centre with these sorts of services and an online facility, especially during these times when it's most needed and we can't reach people like we normally do, is very much needed in Wales. There's more work going on with this in England, but I think we need to look at it more in Wales because it's evidenced now that it's having great success. The main source of money is coming from lottery funding at the moment, Minister, and I'm just wondering if you could look into this as something that you'd be willing to take forward and maybe work with the Government on. Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: I don't think peer mentorship programmes are new; I think there are examples of that going on, in various different guises, in lots of different sectors. I'm very much of the view that this is something where people can support each other and that experience can be transformational—just knowing you're not alone when you're in a dark place is in itself something that is very helpful. I think the mentoring support that is there for parents as well as young people, for parents to understand what their children are going through, is also something that I think we can and do encourage. And there are examples, as you say, of best practice that we can pick up, and certainly the iceberg model that we've seen in Gwent, being led to a large extent by Liz Gregory, is something that we do hope that we can roll out to other parts of Wales.

COVID-19 and Autism

Dawn Bowden AC: 3. What impact is COVID-19 having on people living with autism in Wales? OQ55961

Eluned Morgan AC: COVID-19 has been a really difficult time for autistic people in Wales, and we're working with partners, including the National Autistic Society, to support autistic people throughout this pandemic. We'll continue this joint work to minimise the longer term impact of the virus on autistic people's lives.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I've been listening to the voices of some of my constituents, who are concerned about the profile of people living with autism and other learning disabilities throughout this pandemic. In our Senedd debates, we're familiar with questions about vulnerable groups and, as often seen in the media, the attention most immediately turns to our older citizens and to care homes. But there are other groups who also need our attention, not least those living in both residential and supported accommodation. Their families need to both hear and then see that their needs are being recognised as a priority as the Welsh Government makes plans to deliver a vaccination programme. I hear about people in care settings who've been withdrawing from contact with families, as they don't fully understand the relevance or the benefit of technologies like Zoom. So, can you assure me, Minister, that people living with autism, and other learning disabilities, and their families, are receiving the rightful consideration in your plans?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I can give you that assurance, Dawn. Just to make it clear, right from the beginning of the pandemic, when we were requesting people not to leave their homes, we did, right at the beginning, give exemptions to those people with autism because we understood that they needed to follow certain patterns, that they needed to get out on a regular basis. So, right from the beginning, we have been sensitive to those needs and, of course, as we now look forward to the vaccination roll-out, that's an example of where we need to just be aware that there's an area there that we need to think about, as to how people with autism are likely to respond. Guidance is being developed in preparation for the roll-out of that vaccine, and that information will be available on Autism Wales's website.
The other thing to be clear about on this is that we are very keen to make sure that people living with autism do receive that support, not just when it comes to vaccine roll-out, but also when it comes to more general interaction with the NHS.

Mark Isherwood AC: The 'Left stranded' report, published by the National Autistic Society and partners, shows that as well as significantly exacerbating the long-established challenges that autistic people face, the coronavirus pandemic has had a severely detrimental impact on the mental health of autistic people and their families. The already long waits for assessment and diagnosis services have been exacerbated even further, with only one in four children and young people in north Wales receiving an autism assessment from local neurodevelopmental teams within six months of referral, with many waiting much longer.
The pandemic has also laid bare the lack of understanding of autism within our education system, also severely impacting the mental health of autistic pupils. What additional help can the Welsh Government therefore give these services now to bring down these long waits, to provide people with the support they need as quickly as possible? And, given the Welsh Government's previous commitment to ensuring that all teachers receive mandatory training in autism as part of their initial teacher training, which is needed now more than ever, can the Minister provide an update on plans to deliver this?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Mark. I have read the 'Left stranded' report, and I think it does make some very interesting reading, and I'll be looking forward to discussing that with the chief executive of the National Autistic Society when I meet her next week.
Just in terms of access to services during COVID-19, services are coming together to exchange good practice and support is being offered virtually, of course, whenever that is possible. The other thing that we're doing is making sure that an online assessment tool is being developed, which will meet the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence compliance guidelines. You'll be aware that the public consultation on the code of practice is currently happening—it's ongoing right now—and we're expecting that to be closed on 14 December.
You talk also about the training needed in relation to additional learning needs, and you'll be aware that the new training programme will include an effort to make sure that there is an understanding of the additional learning needs system. That is going to have a complete overhaul, as you're aware, and the hope is that the code and the regulations in relation to additional learning needs will be laid before the Senedd in February.

Young Welsh Speakers

Adam Price AC: 4. What strategies does the Welsh Government have in place to ensure that young Welsh speakers can stay in the local community, especially in rural communities? OQ55976

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you, Adam. I established an economy and Welsh language round-table last year, and I've ensured that we do discuss there the challenges facing Welsh-speaking and rural communities. One of the themes that we're looking at there is the outward migration of young people, and the Arfor programme has also piloted projects targeted specifically in supporting young people to remain in their communities.

Adam Price AC: Jeremy Miles told a Senedd committee that the Government had carried out an analysis of the dual effect of COVID and Brexit on the Welsh language and rural communities, and that you, as the Government, on the basis of that assessment, have accepted that there was room for concern, particularly because of the housing crisis and the increase in the number of people from outside the areas who are buying homes. Will you publish that assessment? Can you provide a timetable for the next steps on the work done by Simon Brooks on second homes? As the housing crisis is happening now, and Carmarthenshire council, for example, has outlined some steps that could be taken immediately, can you tell us what the Government is going to do in terms of an urgent plan this side of the election?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Of course, we, as a department, have ensured that we have undertaken a review of the impact of COVID on the Welsh language in our communities, and that will be published in the next fortnight. On top of that, Simon Brooks will be publishing his paper on second homes in the next fortnight. So, the data is there and it’s coming together and it will help us to analyse where we need to target that work.
In terms of what we’re trying to do in practice, one of the things that we’ve been discussing, in particular in working with local government in the round-table last week, is that we’re looking at, for example, procurement processes and how we can do more to use procurement in the public sector to ensure that we do increase the use of that in our communities. We want to mainstream the Welsh language and rural affairs into Welsh Government programmes, so I’ve brought in officials who have responsibility for the economy to ensure that they understand where their responsibilities are in this area. We’re also looking and we’re hoping to follow this ethos of Llwybroand focusing on the themes or specific sectors. I think that another thing that we need to emphasise is the fact that more people are now working from home, and there may be an opportunity there to try and attract more people to live in their home rural communities.

Suzy Davies AC: I’m pleased to hear about the round-table meetings. The crucial question is why hasn’t the Welsh Government’s economic policy led to better jobs and better paid employment in rural areas to help to keep those young people in their localities and to ensure that they can afford to purchase homes. But in order to maintain the growth of the Welsh language in the community, what assessment have you made of the use of the due regard principle on planning authorities to consider the impact of their decisions on the language? How often is that used to support growth, not only to safeguard the current foundations? For example, how many authorities have used defined local tenure conditions, which used to go alongside affordable housing targets, or sometimes were linked to them? And, also, there is this concept of Help to Buy being used for vacant properties rather than new properties.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. I think there are many things we need to consider here when it comes to housing and keeping people in our communities. It is a serious problem and it's complex. We're looking at every situation and we're hoping to see what more we can do, because we have done more here in Wales than in any other area of the UK. One of the things that we've done is to ensure that we have built 20,000 homes during this period—affordable homes that will help to keep people in their communities. And when it comes to planning, people do need to consider the impact on the Welsh language. One of the problems that there has been is that the tool to do that, to measure that, hasn't been adequate, and that's why my department has ensured that they have done a lot of work to improve that tool to ensure that we can measure that impact better.

The Resilience of Mental Health Services

David Melding AC: 5. What measures are in place to promote the resilience of mental health services in Wales during the COVID-19 pandemic? OQ55968

Eluned Morgan AC: We have invested almost £10 million of additional funding this year to support mental health, and this includes investment in tier 0 support to help reduce the need to access NHS services. We are also taking a cross-Government and multi-agency approach to reduce the wider impact of the pandemic on mental health.

David Melding AC: I thank the Minister for that answer. Will she join me in commending the research carried out between Cardiff and Swansea universities, published last month in the much-respected journal Frontiers in Psychiatry? It's a single-nation study, reflecting on an earlier survey conducted in 2018-19, then comparing how people were feeling during the pandemic. It showed a three or fourfold increase in the prevalence of mental distress, with 50 per cent of the population reporting clinically significant levels of distress and around 20 per cent showing severe effects. The impact was particularly apparent in younger people, and we were talking earlier about the plight of younger people and their psychological distress. Quite clearly, there is huge pressure on mental health services now, and there will be one heck of a hangover, and we really must ensure that the appropriate level of resources and time here in terms of policy development is spent so that we have the best possible mental health services, both in the community and, unfortunately, those that are needed in the acute sector also.

Eluned Morgan AC: I think you're absolutely right, David. All the evidence that we've seen suggests that there's going to be a real problem down the road, unless we address it very early. And that's exactly what we're trying to do. We've put in £2.7 million of additional funding to provide immediate access to a really broad range of low-level mental health support. And it's clear that anxiety comes in lots of different shapes, and it's caused by lots of different things. One of those things is the economic situation, and that's not going to get any better any time soon. We know that there's a direct correlation between an economic problem and the incidence of mental health, and so we can almost map out what's likely to happen in future, which is why really addressing the issue before it becomes a big problem is, I think, the way to do this.
Mental health issues, right from the beginning of the pandemic, we've said are essential services so there shouldn't have been any reduction in terms of support there. We're trying our best to reduce the socioeconomic impacts, most recently in relation to hospitality. There are a lot of young people who work in this sector, many of whom, perhaps, are on zero-hours contracts who won't have a great Christmas now as a result of the fact that we, unfortunately, have had to take quite drastic measures. But the least we can do then is to stand by them and to make sure that there is support for them when it comes to mental health. And then the other thing is to make sure that we are projecting and looking at what is likely to be needed in the future, and we are supporting health boards to make sure that they can start preparing for a very different approach in future.

Mandy Jones AC: Minister, you will know I've recently written to you asking about the mental health impact assessments that have surely been carried out in advance of such momentous and long-term decisions to remove our civil liberties. I have long beenof the opinion that the impact on our collective mental health will be huge. I'm particularly concerned about our young people, so what discussions are you actually having with the education sector about prevention of mental health issues in our schools? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. I'm not sure if there's anyone who hasn't suffered some degree of anxiety during this pandemic, but it is, as you say, a particular problem when it comes to young people. And that's why we have had a very radical new approach to supporting young people and children in schools with mental health issues. There's been a £5 million programme that's been supported between my budget and the education Minister's budget, really looking at improving access to things like school support, giving the nurses in those schools access, giving that provision, really training the teachers. So, there's a whole host of work that has been going on within schools, and as I said earlier, we are now broadening that out to make sure that that fits in with a broader societal approach as well, where we'll be having early intervention to make sure that that support is given not just in school, but also more broadly in the community.

Out-of-hours Mental Health Services

Joyce Watson AC: 6. What assessment has the Minister made of the provision of out-of-hours mental health services? OQ55980

Eluned Morgan AC: We have commissioned two separate reviews to support improvements to our out-of-hours crisis care services. We continue to work with partners to improve the multi-agency response that is required to support people who present in crisis.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch, Gweinidog. I'm so pleased that the Twilight Sanctuary service is now up and running in Pembrokeshire. For the next few months, it will provide a safe refuge for adults experiencing mental distress in those crucial hours when other support services are closed. It follows the success of that project in Llanelli. As a preventative service, it provides early access to help, and that goes a long way to reducing dependence on core mental health services, thereby easing the strain in the system at this very difficult time for people. So, will you be monitoring this scheme to see whether the three-month pilot can be extended and replicated and rolled out across the country?

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Joyce. Of course, this is a programme that has been rolled out as a result of the pilot that happened in Llanelli, so it is good to see that that has worked well, and I think we've got to recognise that people don't just have mental health crises between nine and five, which is why we have to make sure that that 24-hour service is available. What's been great is that the mental health crisis concordat group have really brought together a whole range of groups. Social and welfare issues are being addressed there, but of course, the police and local authorities are integral to making sure that we address this in the right way. The NHS delivery unit is undertaking a detailed review of crisis and liaison services and the sub-group will now be set up to make sure that we look at the conclusions of that concordat group and that we put those into practice over the next year.

Mental Health Provision in Llanelli

Helen Mary Jones AC: 7. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of mental health provision in Llanelli? OQ55977

Eluned Morgan AC: Hywel Dda health board is responsible for ensuring that service provision meets the needs of the local community, including for mental health. We continue to provide more funding for the provision of mental health services than for any other part of the NHS.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for her answer. Dyfed-Powys police and crime commissioner Dafydd Llywelyn recently held a very successful community safety participatory budgeting event, inviting people from the community to prioritise funding for community projects to promote community safety. I'm very pleased to say that Mind Cymru—who happen to be my next-door neighbours, next to my office in Thomas Street in Llanelli—was one of those successful groups. I'm sure the Minister would agree with me that third sector and community organisations have an absolutely vital role to play in addressing mental health issues. They can often be easier to access, they can often be less intimidating, people will be less fearful of stigma; but I'm sure the Minister will also be very aware that many of those organisations are not on a very sound footing financially. So, what further work can the Welsh Government do to ensure that such vital voluntary and community groups are funded sustainably and securely into the future?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I think that is a fair question, because if you look at examples like the twilight fund programme, that has been paid for by the transformation fund, so what we need to do is look at what works and then try and mainstream it. So, that's certainly a message that I've been giving very clearly to my officials, that we really need to embed this tier 0, tier 1 support, which is often much better given and distributed and serviced by the third sector. Certainly, I know that Mind mental health in Llanelli is doing terrific work. I met with somebody last week from Mind who was really talking about the massive pressures that they are facing now in relation to mental health issues because of the downturn in the economy in that area. So, yes, absolutely, certainly that is my intention—to make sure that we can look at a more long-term framework where they can understand that the money will be there for the longer term. Because we need to keep the skills that people develop in those communities as well.

Community Rugby and Football Clubs

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 8. What support can the Welsh Government provide to community rugby and football clubs who have been forced to close their facilities due to COVID-19? OQ55960

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you very much, Huw. We are providing significant financial support to community sport clubs and organisations across Wales, especially via the main agency in this field, the public body Sport Wales.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Gweinidog. I know there's a lot of support been put forward already. I've probably stood on the touch lines and been in the clubhouse of every club from Gilfach to Caerau to Pontyclun inside and outside my constituency over the years, and I know that they're not just sporting clubs, but of course the bedrock of the community as well. They do so much in terms of community support, including, some of them, during the COVID crisis. But despite that support, and particularly with the restrictions in place at the moment, they're really struggling not only to actually do activities on the pitch, but their ancillary accommodation as well, their meetings, their bars and so on. Do you think there's a role for Welsh Government going forward in recovery from the crisis in pulling together the governing bodies, the Sports Council for Wales and others, to see what more will be needed to do to make sure these clubs with a great long heritage are able to survive and thrive in the future?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Diolch, Huw. You've given me a challenge to which I can't say 'no', because one of my main missions throughout this crisis is to ensure that we look for points of recovery, points of creative response, and if we can have that in the area of sport, that would be so important.
The current figures are very good. The community rugby union clubs receive over £188,000, community football clubs receive over £500,000, and the Be Active Wales fund is still open, where Sport Wales is processing applications as quickly as they can. But I do accept your challenge, and I would be grateful if you would assist me in ensuring that we achieve this before the end of this Welsh Parliament.

Thank you to the Deputy Minister and Minister.

3. Topical Questions

The next item, therefore, is topical questions, and the first question is to be answered by the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, and to be asked by Llyr Gruffydd.

Agricultural Funding

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the implications of the cuts to Welsh agricultural funding announced in the UK Government’s spending review on 25 November 2020? TQ512

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. The UK Government has left Wales £137 million short of the funding expected next year. They are using EU funding to subsidise their manifesto commitment, and despite their vocal claims, this funding will be lost. This would not have happened were we remaining in Europe, and amounts to a betrayal of rural communities.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The Conservative election manifesto, of course, said it would guarantee the current annual common agricultural policy budget to farmers in every year of this Parliament, yet less than 12 months later, of course, Boris Johnson has broken his promise with a whopping cut, as you've explained, in agricultural funding support to Wales. Now, farmers I've spoken with feel lied to, they feel hoodwinked, and that it's an absolute betrayal—not my words, but the words of the farming unions, of course—and if the Conservativesbreak their promise on this, then what hope for all the other EU replacement funds that the UK Government once promised would be paid in full to Wales?
This has happened, of course, partly because of the underspend in the rural development plan in Wales. The N+3 rule means, of course, that you're perfectly entitled to spend that money up to 2023, but many of us have warned you that the Welsh Government needed to get that money out in a more timely manner, and now, of course, you've burnt your fingers. So, would you agree that this underlines, once again, the need for an independent inquiry into the Government's handling of the RDP in Wales? And where does this leave your proposals for a sustainable farming scheme, because many of us have been warning as well for a long time that you've been developing your plans for the new support scheme without knowing what funding you would have? This Tory cut certainly doesn't augur well for rural Wales, so can you explain to us maybe how this reduction in funding might affect your plans for the sustainable farming scheme?
And finally, mindful of the fact that you previously confirmed that the basic payment scheme would be maintained for 2021, can you today confirm that the BPS will be maintained, but maintained at its current funding levels?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. In relation to your questions around the RDP, I do not accept that historical pillar transfers are responsible for a delayed spend through the EU RDP, and our spend profile is absolutely where we would expect it to be. We took legitimate decisions about how to profile our RDP spending that suited Wales, and the delivery of our programme objectives. We should not be penalised for these decisions. We would never have envisaged the UK Government would take such a flawed approach to replacement funding. Our RDP is absolutely on track. The level of spend, the level of commitment through the programme, is in line with the European average. The European Commission have repeatedly confirmed they're very satisfied with our programme, and I understand this was expressed as recently as just two weeks ago at the latest programme monitoring committee meeting. So, I absolutely do not accept what you are saying.
In relation to the BPS budget decision, in light of the funding settlement, I am currently considering the level of BPS available in 2021. I appreciate the urgency of this decision for farmers and will obviously set out my intentions this month; this is something that I will obviously mention. I met both the farming unions over the last week in relation to this.
You asked about 'Sustainable Farming and our Land'. As you know, I will be publishing a White Paper this month, and we will obviously take everything into consideration.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Prior to this spending review, I wrote an urgent letter to the Secretary of State for Wales, making clear my belief that the UK Government should adhere to the manifesto commitment to guarantee the current annual budget to farmers in every year of the next Parliament. The response from the Secretary of State provided me with much clarity, and let's be clear: this manifesto commitment has not been broken. The overall annual envelope is £337 million for Wales. The UK Government, however, has provided certainty on future funding in two ways. First, the withdrawal agreement states that the UK will continue to participate in all EU programmes financed by the multi-annual financial framework 2014-2020, until their closure. This ensures that there is continued access to EU funding for several rural programmes, including CAP, pillar 2, the European maritime and fisheries fund and the European regional development fund until their completion. The UK Government stands by its commitment to guarantee to fund the tail of CAP pillar 2 commitments that fall outside of the scope of the withdrawal agreement.
Secondly, Her Majesty's Treasury have adopted a consistent approach, topping up EU receipts with exchequer funding to the level of the manifesto commitment. The real scandal is here. The Welsh Government has around £160 million left unspent of RDP 2014 to 2020. Now, my question, Minister, is: whilst I appreciate the plus 3 flexibility, will you state why the RDP budget was not spent between 2014 and 2020? What do you have to say to our farmers who, since 2014, have found the application windows to have been sporadic, under-resourced, resorted to paying advisers and consultants to assist and even those who have been turned away from support, because you were simply hoarding this funding?
Up to the end of August 2019, RDP spend stood at just 41 per cent. Little surprise, then, that the Auditor General for Wales found that the Welsh Government awarded £53 million of rural development funds without even ensuring that the grants would deliver value for money. You have failed to manage the budget effectively, and as such, will you now agree to an urgent independent review of the RDP? I'm very pleased that Plaid Cymru, and in particular Llyr Gruffydd, is echoing the Welsh Conservative calls for an independent review of the RDP. Thank you. Diolch, Llywydd.

Lesley Griffiths AC: If Janet Finch-Saunders writes to the Secretary of State for Wales and absolutely takes what he says at face value and tells me that she understands the RDP 2014 to 2020 N+3, then it just explains that she really doesn't understand it because of all the reasons I've explained in my answer to Llyr Huws Gruffydd.
I stated that our RDP is on track. The level of spend and commitment is in line with the European average. The European Commission are content and have repeatedly confirmed that they're satisfied with our programme, and that was up to two weeks ago. So, what you're saying is completely incorrect. I do not accept that historic pillar transfers are responsible for the delayed spend through the EU RDP. The Welsh Government has a responsibility to all those who live in rural communities. Support for farmers is absolutely critical, but it's also important we support wider rural development also, and that delivers our priorities, including protecting the environment and enabling communities to thrive, and that's exactly what the RDP does.
The UK Government have gone back on their manifesto commitment. They told us we would not lose a penny—not lose a penny—and we are now losing so many millions for all the reasons I've explained. And I have to say, if you look at some of the comments from your colleagues, Janet Finch-Saunders, and certainly, in September, Andrew R.T. Davies asked me to confirm that I would protect the rural development budget with 100 per cent of the budget committed and spent. Angela Burns welcomed the announcement of our rural development funding allocation. So, are they saying they didn't understand the Conservative manifesto pledge? They're saying now, 'It should be obvious.' Well, it doesn't marry up at all. So, I suggest that you go back to the Secretary of State for Wales, clarifying what I am saying to you now.

Joyce Watson AC: We haven't got a Secretary of State for Wales, we've got a Secretary of State for the Tory Party, because as far as I'm concerned, he's never stood up for Wales, and his predecessor played the same game. So, that's the first thing I would ask the Conservatives here today to do is to ask for a Secretary of State for Wales, one who looks after the interests of Wales.
As the Minister has said, we've been asked here by first of all, Andrew R.T. Davies, to protect that budget with 100 per cent committed to its spend, and again by Angela Burns in May 2020, welcoming the announcement. So, there is real confusion in your camp that you need to sort out, because either you didn't understand what was happening, or you were completely unable to understand what was happening, and I think you need to answer those questions within your group. And I think it would be a really good idea here to stand up for Wales, not the Conservative Party, and actually put forward a real claim and not just accept the letter, because I've had a few from him too, but actually fight the corner for Wales. Because the farmers here have made it perfectly clear that this is going to be detrimental to them in the way that they can survive, going forward. That would be something I hope, Minister, and I'm sure that you will do, and that is to ask the Secretary of State for the Tory Party to revert to becoming the Secretary of State for Wales.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Joyce Watson. I think one of the things that really concerns me is the lack of engagement both from the Treasury in London, where I have tried to have meetings, and certainly, along with my Scottish and Northern Ireland counterparts, as soon as we realised the issue that this was going to bring, and they refused to engage with us; we've just been met with silence. And so, I then tried to get a meeting with the Secretary of State for Wales and his junior Minister. I managed to get that—after much persuasion on my part—the day before the comprehensive spending review. And I believed that the Secretary of State for Wales actually understood my concerns, and he did say he would go straight to the Treasury to discuss that for me. Unfortunately, the next day, we saw the CSR, a week ago, and the level of underfunding that we now have. But I will continue to pursue it. I am going to carry on fighting this, for our farmers and for our rural communities. My colleague Rebecca Evans, the Minister for Finance, has written to the Treasury on this subject; I have a Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs inter-ministerial group meeting on Monday, where I will continue to pursue it.

Thank you, Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

The next item is the 90-second statements. And the first statement today is from Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Sorry, I've been having computer problems all afternoon. Thank you, Presiding Officer.
Local area co-ordinators in Swansea are the unsung heroes of the COVID-19 pandemic, their mission to help anyone who needs support in the community they cover. Local area co-ordinators have responded to over 20,000 enquiries during the pandemic. When Swansea went into lockdown, the local area co-ordinator team was quickly expanded to cover every area of the city, with some council staff being temporarily re-deployed. Since then, they have helped co-ordinate the response in Swansea, with neighbours supporting neighbours to access food or shopping, pick up medication, or make a friendly phone call when they need it most. They have also helped connect older people with local gardeners, helped to get pets to the vets, helped to deal with incidents of fly-tipping, delivered free school meals, supported families in need of clothing and other essentials, and reached out to asylum-seeking families, offering support.
Much of the response would not have been possible without the 2,500 people who came forward to offer neighbour-to-neighbour support, and many of these networks remain in place, including newly established community groups on Facebook and other social media. Throughout the pandemic, Swansea council have also worked side by side with Swansea Council for Voluntary Service and other partners, as well as community groups, and 9,000 people who were told to shield were provided with information about how they could continue to access help.
I'm very proud to come from Swansea, and I would like to thank the local area co-ordinators and their army of local volunteers for what they've done to help our community.

The next statement is from Ann Jones.

Ann Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Tomorrow, we celebrate International Day of People with Disabilities, and the theme this year is 'Not all disabilities are visual'. And this theme, especially in this unprecedented year, should alert us all to be more aware of the many hidden disabilities there are, and how we should be more open to helping everyone through these most difficult times. So, as a politician with a disability, I have sought to speak out on issues that affect many, but for whom a simple solution could be adopted—it doesn't always need legislation. For example—and it's my classic example—handrails on both sides of a flight of stairs or ramps can make such a difference to a person with a mobility issue, to allow them to become more independent.
I've recently been elected as one of the nine regional champions to help lead the work of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, and I will do my best to highlight the work that we have done here within our Senedd. There is still much more to do on this front, of course. And so, as we celebrate this important day, we need to redouble our efforts to see a far more equal society. And this is the plug—I'm chairing the Senedd's virtual panel discussion tomorrow evening on the theme of 'A vision for a more equal Wales'. So, I hope you will all join me in this very exciting event. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much, Ann Jones.

5. Debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee Report—Report 02-20

The next item is the debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee report. And I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Jayne Bryant.

Motion NDM7493 Jayne Bryant
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Considers the report of the Standards of Conduct Committee, Report 02-20, laid before the Senedd on 25 November 2020 in accordance with Standing Order 22.9.
2. Endorses the recommendation in the report.

Motion moved.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Lywydd. As the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, I formally move the motion. The committee considered the report from the Acting Commissioner for Standards in relation to a complaint made against Dai Lloyd MS, regarding the improper use of the Senedd estate. The Standards of Conduct Committee gave the commissioner's report careful consideration, and our report sets out the committee's judgment as to the sanction that is appropriate in this case.
The facts relating to the complaint, and the committee's reasons for the recommendation,are set out in full in the committee's report. The motion tabled invites the Senedd to endorse the committee's recommendation.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I accept the committee's report and its recommendations in full. It's crucial for the smooth running of the Senedd, and to ensure vibrant democracy, that there is a safe space for political groups to arrange and discuss their work in a way that recognises the party context. Where the boundary lies between party and parliamentary work can be unclear. Indeed, the commissioner himself acknowledges that neither the code of conduct nor the guidance, as they were at that time, the time when the meeting was held, back in the summer of 2017, a full three and a half years ago now, gave any guidance on what is appropriate for Members in relation to the use of rooms, and neither did they provide guidance on the meaning of 'party political purposes', to quote the commissioner.
However, I do accept the decision made by the commissioner, in this specific case, that the use of the room was not within the rules as they existed. I am eager to take the opportunity, however, to stress that this does not relate to the misuse of public funds in any way whatsoever.
In looking to the future, I welcome the fact that the Commission has now updated guidance in relation to use of rooms and Senedd resources more generally. I also welcome the fact that the Commission has noted its willingness to keep the guidance under review, so that there are no unintended consequences arising from them. I do very much hope that all of this will facilitate compliance of Members with rules in the future, and will enable us to carry on with our work in an appropriate manner. Thank you.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I just want to put on the record that I support the report, and I support the recommendations of the report, but I do believe, as the Conservative representative on this committee, for fullness, all the papers should have been made available to the report—appended to the report. I was outvoted on that, and I respect that decision. And that's why the Conservative group will be abstaining on this report, because we do believe that the papers that were before us should have been available in their entirety in the report.

Jayne Bryant, the Chair, do you wish to respond?

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'd just like to thank both the Members who've taken part in the debate today and put on record their points, and I think that will be clear for everybody to see, and just thank the Members for taking part today.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time. We will now suspend proceedings in order to make some changes in the Chamber. So, we'll take a brief break.

Plenary was suspended at 15:38.

The Senedd reconvened at 15:46, with the Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) in the Chair.

6. Debate on the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Report: The impact of the COVID-19 outbreak on journalism and local media

We reconvene on item 6, which is a debate on the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee's report: the impact of the COVID-19 outbreak on journalism and local media. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Helen Mary Jones.

Motion NDM7491 Helen Mary Jones
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee on the Impact of the COVID-19 outbreak on journalism and local media laid in the Table Office on 14 September 2020.

Motion moved.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to present this report from the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee on the impact of the pandemic on journalism and on local media. I'd like to begin, of course, by giving my thanks to my fellow committee members, to our wonderful team of staff and to all of those witnesses who gave both oral and written evidence.
I'm sure we would all agree that it is vital to democracy that we have thriving press and media that can hold us all to scrutiny. I'm sure we would also all agree on the vital importance, at a time of crisis, of accurate information at such a dangerous time. Our report looks at three areas in this regard. We found that the crisis has exacerbated and highlighted ongoing challenges for the Welsh media and for local media, and threw into sharp relief a persistent failure of some elements of the UK media to report accurately on devolved matters. We looked at the nature and accuracy of information about the response to the pandemic, the impact of the threat of redundancies on key news outlets and long-term support for local journalism and media. We're grateful to the Welsh Government for accepting all but one of our recommendations.
Reporting on devolved matters quickly became problematic at the beginning of the pandemic. Many people, of course, in Wales rely on UK news outlets, whether that is broadcasters or newspapers, for their news. It was frequently the case that UK-wide news providers did not make it clear that there were different rules in different parts of the United Kingdom across the four nations. It is true to say that reporting on devolved matters started very badly and it did, through the pandemic, improve, and it became clear that more and more people were aware that the rules here were different. We gradually did see a move from the reporting of English regulations as if they applied to the whole of the UK to reporting on England and Scotland, and, eventually, to reporting on the four nations.
It is crucial at this difficult time that people across the UK know what rules apply to them, and this is why we called on the Welsh Government to urge the Office of Communications to ensure that broadcasters maintain impartiality and accuracy of reporting on all four UK nations equally as a matter of course. We're pleased that Ofcom has written to broadcasters to remind them of this and of the broadcasting code. We have seen some improvement since, but it still continues to be the case that this is something that broadcasters and journalists continue to need to be reminded of. The committee has felt some frustration in this regard, particularly with elements of public sector broadcasting.
In July, Reach plc, which, of course, is the company that owns some of our national and our most important local news outlets, announced that almost 90 journalists' jobs were at risk. We were able to take evidence from the company and from the journalists' unions. We were very concerned about the potential for job losses, and we asked at that time for the Welsh Government to meet representatives from the sector to get an understanding of what support might be needed and what they could do at that time. I'm hoping that the Deputy Minister will be able to tell us whether he has been able to progress that work with key stakeholders that he agreed to undertake.
One crucial source of support, of course, for local news outlets is advertising revenue. We recommended very strongly that Welsh Government should ensure that statutory notices, which are great source of revenue and are within Welsh Government and local government control, should be published in hyperlocal and online providers, as well as in the larger outlets. And again, it would be good to hear from the Deputy Minister the extent to which that is being monitored and the extent to which that has happened.
At the time, we recommended that the Welsh Government should advocate to the UK Government for an extension of the job retention scheme, and I'm sure we're all highly relieved that that scheme has been extended.
The pandemic has, as I've said, accelerated problems that were already facing our local and national media in Wales, and the decline in newspaper sales has been, of course, stark and continues. At the height of the pandemic, they were selling almost no physical newspapers at all. We heard a lot of evidence about the difficulty of monetising online news media—how difficult it is for companies to make a profit. It is ironic in some ways that just as the Senedd has gained further powers, public interest journalism is being put under threat in Wales and potentially being forced to retreat.
We called on the Welsh Government to urgently act to encourage new entrants into the market and to support innovative approaches to the provision of news journalism in Wales. We were pleased to hear from the Deputy Minister, in committee on 17 September, that he's asked Creative Wales to consider whether it might be able to act as an arm's-length body to provide some direct financial support for key local news outlets in Wales, and again I'm looking forward to hearing more from the Deputy Minister in this regard.
There is much more I could say, Dirprwy Lywydd, but I'm very anxious to hear from other Members, both members of the committee and others, who will want to contribute to this debate. I'm grateful again to all who took part in the inquiry, and I hope that we can all agree that it is vital to the future of our fledgling democracy that that democracy is accurately reported on, so that people can become aware of the important decisions made in this place that affect them. Diolch yn fawr.

David Melding AC: I'll try not to repeat the excellent points made by Helen Mary, but I do wish to be associated with them fully. I would say this though about the improvement in the coverage of devolved matters, that Mark Drakeford has become something of a cult figure throughout the United Kingdom. This is a policy-free statement on my part, but he has had a profile, he's been profiled also on Radio 4 by Nick Robinson, and we heard all about his upbringing in Carmarthenshire and his love of Glamorgan County Cricket Club and his visits to St Helen's, which, I have to say, took me back to my teenage years as well. I do think that that's really important, because that should be the standard—people should realise that we are now a decentralised state. And on some things it's crucial. For instance, the Financial Times a few months ago carried an interesting couple of articles on test and trace, and compared the Welsh approach with the approach in other parts of the UK, particularly England, and did say that the connection between public health and local authorities in Wales did seem to be the way to go. Now, the evidence is out there, and the FT has formed its own judgment, but I thought that was interesting.
Let me just make two very specific points. Earlier this autumn, the 'Global Satisfaction with Democracy' report was published, carried out by Cambridge University. It had international coverage. It's regarded, I think I can safely say, as being hugely authoritative. It warned that the effect of social media is driving people in society into silos, where there are, particularly in Anglo-Saxon countries, two opposing tribes, and this mirrors the two-party system. I suppose, at the UK level, we could roughly say, it still prevails in terms of choice of Government, even if it doesn't quite prevail now in Scotland and in Wales. But I do think there's a real issue with people getting a lot of their primary political information on social media. I think, as a complementary tool and giving voice to ever so many people, social media is wonderful, but as a primary source we've got to be really careful. And as we are about to start a vaccination programme, which will be open to the whole population within the next six months or so, it reminds us of how important sources of information are in the public health field, because there's a lot of fake news out there in relation to many of these issues.
My second point, I go back to the 1830s and probably the greatest theorist of democracy, Alexis de Tocqueville, the Frenchman who went to America and wrote that famous book,Democracy in America. He thought one of the key things that permitted democracy, and something approaching mass democracy, in terms of male suffrage anyway, was occurring for the first time in the world—not even the Greeks got anywhere close to that—in America in the 1830s, and he thought it was a free press that was required, and competition in a free press. And if I can just quote one of the things Tocqueville said:
'The sovereignty of the people and the liberty of the press may therefore be looked upon as correlative'.
You need both, and I think that's a very powerful insight.
And I'll end with this piece of evidence that we received; I thought it was the most powerful thing we heard from the professional journalists. We are losing professional journalists daily and it's diminishing our democracy. But it was emphasised to us that the biggest loss is that the professional journalists who used to live in the local communities they wrote about are no longer there, and that's a great worry and we've got to find a business model that can address it.

Hefin David AC: I'm not a member of the committee, but I took a great deal of interest in this report, particularly because there are two sources of very good-quality journalism that I use—it isn't one of the big ones—and that's Senedd Home, which is run by Owen Donovan, and it's run entirely as a labour of love. It is the best summary of these debates that you will see anywhere, and I would recommend any Member of the Senedd—I know I've spoken to the Deputy Minister about this before—use that as a source for finding out what has gone on post debates, because it is the best summary you will see, short of reading through the whole Record yourself, which, of course, isn't possible. And I'm sure this will get a mention in his summary as well, which is not why I'm saying it, Deputy Minister. The other issue, though, is that public notices don't apply to him because it's an online service. So, there is an issue with the publication of public notices.
The other source that I use—and Senedd Home is absolutely independent and supports independence—is the Caerphilly Observer, and the Caerphilly Observer is a stunning piece of work. It started in 2009 as an online source and now has a print run that runs across the Caerphilly borough. It is completely independent, and I know it is because there are stories in there that have driven me mad. But I also know that there are stories in there that have driven Plaid Cymru mad. And, in fact, it's good to see that the Plaid Cymru people in Caerphilly insist it's a Labour rag and the Labour people insist that it's a Plaid rag, so you know very well—and if there were any Conservatives in Caerphilly, I'm sure they'd say the same about other parties. And it is a very, very good source of independent information. Because they've got a print run, they can run community print notices, so they do get a subsidy by that route. I spoke to the publisher last night; I had a chat with Richard Gurner who started it, and it's his work, and one of the things he said was, if you go down the route of a direct subsidy, the problem becomes accountability. At least if you're doing the public notices, the benefit of public notices is there's a public service, which you're being paid for directly. And I know all the political parties that are represented in my community, the main political parties, advertise in the Caerphilly Observer. There is another form of public subsidy, and that is without fear or favour. So, I think that is the better route with regard to—I think it's recommendation 7. I haven't got the report in front of me, but I think it was recommendation 7, Chair.
But it doesn't disguise the huge long-term problems that the industry is facing. Good, proper, well-researched, detailed, accurate news is much harder to monetise than a clickbait post. That's the biggest problem facing the industry at this time. I know we all go on Facebook and we provide our information as accurately as we can, regardless of party. I've seen Members across this Chamber providing good information on Facebook, but there is a tide that swamps us all, and the danger is that this tide will swamp the likes of the Caerphilly Observer. So, the problem also faced is that businesses that currently advertise in their print edition, as electronic media takes off, the newer businesses don't want to use the print edition either. They're currently keeping a good income through print advertising, but that isn't likely to be sustained long term.
So, the publisher of the Caerphilly Observer told me that his answer to this is two things: continue that public services subsidy that we've mentioned; but also—and I'll use his words—'the solution is in developing highly engaged online audiences who are willing to pay for their information, but for that information also to be available to all'. 'I know that not all of my audience', said Richard Gurner from theCaerphilly Observer, 'is willing to make a financial contribution, but if enough do, then that could lead to a sustainable business model not reliant on advertising. It's a really tall order, but it's not impossible'. And I tell you something, if you go in to a shop in Caerphilly and you talk about a recent incident, somebody is likely to say to you, 'Oh, I saw that in theObserver.' They don't mean the SundayObserver, they mean theCaerphilly Observer. People talk about that paper, because it is a reliable and trusted source, and Richard is starting to see the benefit of that through people paying subscriptions.
The final thing he said to me was that the Welsh Government has shown leadership in supporting the independent sector through the independent community journalism fund. This helped him keep afloat, but what he would like to see is to see that expanded. So, it would be really important to see that expanded through the independent sector. Even though it does come back to this issue of state subsidy, it is as arm's length, to an extent, which is beneficial. So, that's where my interest is. I want to see good-quality hyperlocal journalism; even if it isn't in my favour, I want to see it. And I think the two shining examples that I've identified today—Senedd Home andCaerphilly Observer—are the ones who are leading the way.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you to the committee for another brief but very important report, containing some sensible recommendations for the short term and the longer term in terms of sustaining and supporting local media and the press. Every time we discuss this area, I do declare an interest, because I am journalist by trade, and a member of the National Union of Journalists, and have been for almost 40 years now. There is no doubt that the journalistic landscape has changed significantly over that period, particularly, perhaps, in the past 20 years, and that change has gathered pace recently because of COVID-19, as we well know. However, I would agree with the comments made by others, namely that there is a fundamentally important role for journalism in our democracy, and that role is fundamental for the maintenance of a healthy democracy.
There has been a great appetite for news during the pandemic, and it's been more important than ever to ensure that the people of Wales have access to accurate and relevant news, not only for the good of our democracy, but also for the good of public health. But, as others have mentioned, the pandemic has also highlighted the challenges facing journalism, particularly local and print journalism.
If I could mention some of Plaid Cymru's ideas in this area. A Plaid Cymru Government would promote Welsh media representing the people of Wales, and what's important to the people of Wales. We would create an independent Welsh media commission to fund a network of English-language digital news providers. Of course, that wouldn't be at the expense of Welsh-medium journalism; we need to ensure that there is sufficient support available for Golwg360 and so on if they are to develop further. We need plurality in our journalism; there is a great need for that in Wales.
We need to tackle the current democratic deficit, which emerges from historic weaknesses. The report draws attention to the important role that the media has in educating first-time voters of 16 and 17 years old as we approach the election. But there is also a democratic deficit across age ranges, and I'm grateful to Delyth Jewell for raising those concerns recently in the Senedd. Only 6 per cent of people of Wales read Welsh newspapers; the figure for Scotland is 46 per cent. Isn't it time we had one national newspaper for Wales, whilst accepting, of course, that digital journalism is the future and the way forward?
We need to consider establishing a scheme or a fundfor multiplatform journalists to work in areas that don't have a newspaper—not everyone is fortunate enough to have a Caerphilly Observer or Caernarfonand Denbigh Heraldand other such papers. One could model this on the local democracy correspondents scheme that is already in play, but that could be enhanced to include all sorts of news and journalism. And ensuring easy access to the journalism industry is crucially important too. Journalists face a range of barriers, including, very often, having to complete a number of internships that are often unpaid or at a very low salary, and journalists are now expected to have a degree at least. The Government should be looking at various alternative ways, through apprenticeships, perhaps, to attract new journalists from backgrounds that haven't been sufficiently represented in the past.
To conclude, the media will play an important role over the next few months. As news of vaccines is announced, we must ensure that there is a robust system in place to promote vaccines and to tackle the misinformation, or the fake news, that is so often shared at the moment. Journalism has a major role to play in that regard, and the Government needs to work closely with the sector in order to ensure that there is a major new public health campaign developed to educate our population on the importance of vaccination, as well as emphasising that vaccines are safe. Thank you very much to the committee for its thorough work once again.

Mick Antoniw AC: There was an old National Union of Mineworkers banner that had as its main logo on it 'Knowledge is power', and that motif has never been more true. The reason why so many billionaires, millionaires and oligarchs want to own the media is not because of their love of journalism, love of the print world or the media, it's because they know it gives them power, and we have to recognise that the control of that information and that power has a direct impact on the quality of our democracy.
I welcome many of the comments that have been made already. I welcome also, from the evidence that we received during this committee, the improvements in the quality of broadcasting in beginning to recognise devolution, even to such an extent that we now have UK Government Ministers who also are aware of devolution and refer specifically within the context of their responsibilities, as opposed to devolved responsibilities. I think that is a very significant step forward.
I'd like to make just a few comments about aspects of evidence that emerged with regard to the state of the media within Wales, and it is a long-term issue.COVID has exacerbated, catalysed and brought focus, I think, on those particular problems that we have: the move away from the print media to online, the control of that, and also, one of the real concerns that I think were raised in the committee, and that is the point that David Melding made about the loss of community-based journalism. I would say also the loss of specialist investigative journalism. We have seen some excellent journalism recently, for example, by Martin Shipton in WalesOnline on issues, but those areas of investigative journalism are few and far between, and often, when they are done, they aren't actually put out then on social media because of the policy of the way the media is operating within Wales. Also, there are concerns about the way media is being increasingly domiciled outside Wales, admittedly, with all the assurances, but I don't think there was a great deal of confidence in those assurances.
Can I finish with some comments about the way community radio has really begun to come into its own? Certainly, in my constituency, GTFM is a very professionally run and operated community radio service—a vital service, for example, that we had during the flooding last February, keeping communities informed of what was happening and where support was, but also now during COVID. One of the ways in which Government can support community radio is actually through things like public service broadcasting. Can I say it is better than it has been? But I think it is still inconsistent.
There was a time when a lot of public service broadcasting done by Welsh Government on Welsh campaigns didn't go to community radio. That is changing, but it seems to me as a matter of course—. For example, with the vaccination public information we're going to have, one of the key sources of getting into our communities has got to be the use of community radio. And I think, in the longer term, we should see community radio as being a real opportunity for the provision of quality, impartial information into our communities about what happens in this place, about what happens in Wales more generally. But in order to do that, we have to support it. It is run on a shoestring, it is very variable across Wales, and I think we should now see it as a quality democratic asset. Thank you, Deputy Llywydd.

I now call the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I thank the committee for preparing a comprehensive report in such a short time on an issue that's of vital importance to us all in a public health emergency, as we are in at present.
The report shows the challenges that face the media sectors in Wales as a result of the global pandemic, and it also does remind us of the problems that have been with us for many years in terms of how the people of Wales can communicate with each other through the medium of the system that we have at present in the media. And I would like to refer specifically, because we've accepted all the recommendations, apart from the one relating to the BBC, to the reason why we've taken this position. And I'd like to explain that it's only for a constitutional reason and we're very eager to see the very interesting developments in terms of the central management of the BBC, where Wales will play a very prominent role in the future of the BBC centrally—that there is an opportunity to have a new discussion with the BBC about the way in which that public medium can reflect devolution far more clearly.
I'd also like to thank the committee for the effective way in which they engaged with stakeholders, and they gave a clear emphasis on the need for Welsh media to reflect and to be productive, because I think there's one great weakness in terms of several debates about the media, namely that the media only reflects things. The media darkens as well, because if issues don't get the due attention, democracy is not possible, and that was behind a request I made to Creative Wales to consider their role in relation to strengthening the media in Wales. And I'm pleased to say that the board of Creative Wales have met.
Unfortunately, I haven't had an opportunity to join them yet, but in the first meeting that I will attend as Deputy Minister responsible for this area, I will be discussing the way in which they can assist us in developing this principle of having better communication in terms of what's happening in Wales. And that includes, hopefully, the fact that we can develop a partnership between the Welsh Government and the Senedd Commission here so that these issues—well, I know that these issues have been issues of concern since I've been part of the Assembly, that we haven't had that sufficient understanding of our activities. I think that there is scope for the Senedd Commission, and I understand that they're willing to do this, to collaborate in a model of communication and to develop communication in Wales that is more adequate.
It's important to state that any body that funds communication of any kind or has oversight of any kind does operate on an arm's-length basis, which has been so effective in the cultural realm. And I think it's possible for us to have an operational means that sustains journalistic independence while ensuring that the ability of Welsh people to communicate with each other and the ability of the Welsh nation to be an understandable nation in the world are protected. Thank you very much.

I have no Member who has requested to make an intervention, therefore I'll call on Helen Mary Jones to reply to the debate.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'm grateful to all Members who have contributed to this debate. I think the breadth of the discussion shows how important these issues are to Members across the Chamber and not only to Members of our committee. I, of course, don't have time to respond to everybody's comments, but I will try and pick up on some of the main ones.
I think David Melding's comments about the risk of tribalism on social media, how we can end up hearing what we want to hear; hugely important, and that reinforces the need for tried and tested journalism, and as he said, journalists living in their communities, understanding their communities. And he is, of course, quite right that without a free press and without accurate information, democracy is impossible, and that's a point, of course, that was touched on by several Members.
I want to spend a few moments responding to Hefin David, who I thought made some very, very good points. I use Senedd Homea lot, too, and I also don't always agree with what it says, but it's incredibly accurate, and I think, in the committee, we did make recommendations about this, about those sorts of websites having access to the funding that comes through public notices; that they have a crucial role to play, and that is, as Hefin David says, a very effective way in which the public sector can support local journalism—or indeed, in this case, Senedd Home,national journalism—but without the kind of risks that he rightly highlights of direct funding, but I'll come back to that in a minute.
It's interesting that in a further session that we've had, the Caerphilly Observer was highlighted to us as a really good practice example of how a certain amount of seed funding through local journalism was able to kick things off and that now it's a successful commercial enterprise. It was also, though, put to us in that session that that wouldn't work in all communities, and that you need a particular individual to drive it.
So, that's, kind of, one model. But we were convinced by the evidence that there will be some need for more direct public support, and that comes back to the Minister's point about needing to do that at arm's length. Of course, there is a precedent: the Welsh Government does that for Golwg360. It's not a huge amount of money, but it just helped to get it off the ground and made it sustainable. I think one of the things that came through was the need for a variety of models, and I think Hefin David's point about subscription models for online. In our discussions with Reach, they were sceptical about that, but I think we as a committee felt that they should explore it further. I was going to say they hadn't tried hard enough, but that's probably not fair. But that that should be explored further, and of course, there are innovators in the sector in Wales who are looking at precisely that kind of model for national journalism. So, I'd like to thank Hefin David very much for his contribution because I think it was a very valuable one.
Thanks to Siân Gwenllian as well. She's right to highlight that these challenges to the sector are not new but, as we heard in our evidence, the pandemic highlighted it and made it worse. I thought the point she made particularly about access for a wider range of young people to professional opportunities in journalism, that was very well made and that may be something that we need to pick up.
Mick Antoniw was right to remind us that knowledge is power, and his passion for community radio is well established and absolutely deserved. And again, the points about how we can use public sector advertising.
I'll bring my responses to a close as quickly as I possibly can, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm grateful to the Minister for accepting most of our recommendations. I'm glad that he's intending to have those discussions with Creative Wales about how they might be able to create a kind of arm's-length model to provide support, particularly perhaps support to get local journalism off the ground. I hope that he will be able to come back to the committee soon on that, because what we heard in our evidence was that there are outlets disappearing, journalists are disappearing on a week-by-week basis and we need to address that urgently. This is obviously a matter that the committee will continue to want to keep under review.
And I will end by saying, Dirprwy Lywydd, that there is, of course, one thing that all of us can do, and we can buy our local paper. We can, those of us who can afford it, subscribe to services that make that possible and this work certainly reminded me that perhaps I shouldn't always go to WalesOnline and I ought to be buying the Western Mail. So, thanks, everybody, once again for participating in the inquiry and in this debate, and these are matters to which I know we will return. I commend the report to the Senedd.

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I don't see an objection, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee Report: The decarbonisation of transport

Item 7 on the agenda is a debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee report, the 'Decarbonisation of transport', and I call on the Chair of the committee to move that motion, Russell George.

Motion NDM7494 Russell George
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee on its inquiry: Decarbonisation of Transport which was laid in the Table Office on 14 July 2020.

Motion moved.

Russell George AC: Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I do move the motion that's presented in my name.

Russell George AC: This inquiry focused on whether the Welsh Government's emissions reduction targets for transport were realistic, and whether its decarbonisation plans were ambitious and innovative enough. We looked at technologies and the funding models available. It's important to also look, of course, as we did, at what inroads the Welsh Government was making, and identify gaps in advance of the consultation on the new transport strategy, which, of course, we hope to influence. We finished gathering evidence in January, well before the lockdown, and we reported in July, so our report does reflect issues in the early part of the pandemic.
The report recognised that not all is devolved, but has plenty of evidence about the levers within Welsh Government control. I'd also like to thank the Minister, Ken Skates, for providing us with a further update in November to his original response in August, again reflecting recent changes.
The report recognised the potential for a culture shift in people's travel behaviour following the March lockdown. September figures from the Department for Transport showed that motor vehicle use had recovered most rapidly, but bus and rail hadn't recovered at all well. So, there's still plenty of uncertainty and concern about the viability of the public transport network.
Welsh Government's legislative programme plans to give local authorities more flexibility over bus operations were, of course, thrown off course by the pandemic, but the Welsh Government and Transport for Wales now see the bus emergency scheme as the opportunity to influence decarbonisation efforts. Our report also asked how Welsh Government would align COVID-19 recovery funding with its decarbonisation agenda and capitalise on the benefits. I look forward to further detail, as promised, as we go into 2021.
The report set out evidence about possible funding mechanisms, and we supported the future generations commissioner's call for more clarity on how the Welsh Government's budget supports decarbonisation. The high capital cost of investing in electric vehicles is a real barrier for bus operators and local authorities, with more Government support needed, so we asked what consideration the Welsh Government had given to retrofitting diesel buses over buying new electric ones, which some had proposed, but again with some disadvantage. So, we welcome the support plan being developed to help achieve the 2028 target for electric fleets.
We also asked, Deputy Presiding Officer, for assurances about the charging infrastructure and energy network capacity to go electric, and to sustainably recycle electric batteries. The Welsh Government has published its strategy on electric vehicle charging today, as it happens, so I've already had a quick look at that, but I'll be pleased to look at that in more detail. But there is a view that Government should help fill the gaps that the market can't or won't fill, such as, particularly, of course, rural areas. When we discussed the Wales transport strategy in Plenary just a couple of weeks ago, the Deputy Minister said that priority of investment decisions would be looked at as part of that delivery plan.
The community transport and taxi and private hire sector said that they needed more support to decarbonise, and the response to recommendation 6 recognises the importance of supporting the community transport sector. We welcome the Government's continued efforts to find ways to support taxi drivers, including the 'try before you buy' pilots for green taxis, and we look forward to the promised further update in March of next year.
We supported the Low Carbon Vehicle Partnership calling for a UK-wide approach to defining vehicle standards to help encourage investment in new technology, and we also welcomed the Welsh Government's commitment to keep us updated on developments in that regard.
On modal shift, it was good to see COVID-19 funding for local measures to encourage more active travel, but detailed plans, I certainly think, are now needed to manage and meet demand on the public transport network for the longer term. And while the chief executive of Transport for Wales, who spoke to committee a fortnight ago, said he was quite bullish about future revenue generation on the rail network and the opportunities to better join up bus and rail, which was positive to hear, the committee will be examining the pros and cons of the Government's ambition for 30 per cent of Welsh workers to continue working remotely. Certainly, we've had some challenges on committee with some Members finding that more difficult than others, but it certainly doesn't work for everyone. As I say, we found that out as a committee, but we did see some short-term benefits of the enforced reduction in car use, such as improved air quality.
Finally, our report identified some gaps in the Welsh Government's decarbonisation plans to the freight sector, and the role that Cardiff Airport should play, in our view. So, it is encouraging that there will be mini plans produced for the different transport sectors and transport modes to deliver the new transport strategy. I look forward, Deputy Presiding Officer, to hearing the views of colleagues around the Chamber and, of course, the Deputy Minister, who I believe is responding to the Senedd today. And I, of course, commend this report to the Senedd.

Thank you. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I didn't expect to be called so soon, but I'm delighted to contribute right at the outset. First of all, can I thank Russell and the committee members—

I could always call somebody else.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: No, don't do that; don't think twice about this. Delighted with the report and the wide-ranging recommendations, some of which I'll turn to in a moment, but I also want to go a bit further as well and see what the committee thinks, what Russell thinks, and also the Minister on some other proposals as well to do with decarbonisation in Wales.
First of all, delighted to see the proposals around recommendation 3, around pop-up measures and the support for those adaptations to promote active travel. Russell and I are both members of the active travel group, and it's been interesting to see those innovations not just in the well-publicised ones in Cardiff, but including in places like Bridgend and elsewhere. I'd be interested in the thoughts of the committee going forward in how those can not only be embedded, but they can also form part of work going forward, where, increasingly, we can pilot temporary ideas of pop-up measures, not to do with COVID, but simply to see if they work in our different environments and different communities. If they do work and if they're popular, then keep them. This is what they do in Sweden. This is what they're doing elsewhere. They try these things, and if people like them and go, 'Do you know? We quite like a quieter environment around the shops. We quite like the idea that we can walk and cycle rather than have traffic fumes everywhere', then they say, 'Right, we'll now make them stay.' So, I like recommendation 3, but I think we might even be able to go further.
On recommendations 11 and 12 on freight, really welcome the focus you've brought to that, Russell and the committee. I'm interested whether or not you looked at the potential of the south Wales railway line to actually really shift some freight onto that, and particularly in terms of delivery in and out of city centres, you know, this last mile thing. Now, that would require some significant investment in depos of old style, where you could actually offload at ports, you could bring stuff down the rail, and then you drive that last mile or two, or you put it onto whatever sort of transport to get it into the city centres. There is real scope and there is expertise in the rail industry to deliver this. I'd like to see Welsh Government thinking about that as part of its decarbonisation going forward, and perhaps setting the standard within Wales for what we could do with pushing freight onto rail. It sounds like an old Victorian approach—actually not. You can now do it with pallet deliveries, where they're straight roll-on, roll-off, the same as they are at ports.
But the thing I really want to touch on is the recommendations 14 and 15 around Cardiff Airport. Now, let me say, right at the outset, I'm a big supporter of Cardiff Airport, I'm a big supporter of actually having investment into not just the airport, but having people from Wales, and particularly south and mid Wales, and from Bristol, flying from that airport. But we do also have to deal, even though it's not a devolved issue, with decarbonisation of aviation. We really have to do it. And I'd just be interested in testing the committee's thoughts, Russell's thoughts, Ministers' thoughts on where we go with this. Now, there's plenty of talk about sustainable aviation. I used to lecture on it 20 years ago. We've been talking about this for years—sustainable aviation fuel, more economic flights et cetera, et cetera. Slowly, gradually, the technology is moving onwards, but at a very slow place. And, in fact, this year, on sustainable aviation fuel itself, it took a step backwards, in the year that we are approaching COP26. But I think we should be looking at other ideas.
We know, from a recent report that came out, that 1 per cent of the super wealthy—the super, super, super wealthy—in the world, actually fly half of the flights, contribute half of the emissions of aviation. This isn't somebody outside my office, living in a flat above the shops, going on one flight a year to Malaga. These are people who are doing the equivalent of three long-haul flights a year, or one short-haul flight every single month of the year. Now, we have to think about this and how we use Cardiff Airport to actually say to people, 'Yes, let's do the equality issues for this as well, so, if you need your short hop flight, that's the place to go. If you need your long one, once every while—.' But I think I'd be interested in the Welsh Government's position, running up to COP26, on where we are on things like levies for those super-duper travellers who just spend money like there's no tomorrow and also burn up our emissions as well.
Finally, I would say, in welcoming this report, and looking forward to the Government's report, I think we've just seen a real good example of decarbonisation in practice, because the Government's response to the Burns proposals have not said, 'Build more roads', they've said, 'Shift the modal shift off there; let's throw the money at other things and encourage people', like me, 'not to use their cars, but to travel by other means.' Diolch yn fawr iawn, Russell, and everybody who's contributed. It's a good report.

Nick Ramsay AC: Though not a member of the committee, I wanted to say a few words, as I think the issues raised in the report are of interest to all of us. Business here in this Chamber is, of course, at the moment, COVID-centric, understandably so, and combating the pandemic may be the immediate concern. But, beyond the pandemic, over the longer term, tackling climate change remains a key challenge, arguably the key challenge of our age, and decarbonisation must be at the heart of this.
The first recommendation in the report highlights a need for greater capacity in the energy network, if we're to meet the ambition of switching to electric vehicles over the next couple of decades. Electric vehicles are more efficient and cleaner, as we know, but they do, of course, need electricity to run on, rather than petrol or diesel, and that has to be generated somehow, preferably from renewables, to avoid us simply shifting the emission problem from our towns and cities on to power stations.
And, then, of course, we come back to the age-old question of the electric charging infrastructure, which we discuss over and over again in this Chamber and outside. That's identified in recommendation 2. Clearly, the current infrastructure is inadequate for the current electric car fleet in Wales, let alone fit for purpose for future expansion. We really do need to see a step change in the delivery of the charging infrastructure, and that's going to require cross-portfolio working, including changes to the planning system.
Only a couple of years ago, a planning application for an innovative electric vehicle charging station adjacent to the A40 in Monmouth, in my constituency, was rejected on the basis of breaching technical advice note 15 guidelines on flooding. Now, I appreciate that there's good thought behind many of these guidelines, but, at the same time, we need to ensure that there's flexibility in the system if we're going to have any hope of reaching the kind of number of charging stations that we need.
And it's not just about cars. Turning to buses, the Confederation of Passenger Transport UK has suggested that the emission targets for buses are extremely high—too high—and not achievable without considerable investment. They ask, 'Where are the costings? Where's the detail?' As the Green Alliance has said, the cost-effectiveness of electrifying the bus fleet and the associated infrastructure at the depot is dependent on an upward trend in bus usage—a trend that certainly isn't there at the moment during the pandemic, and arguably wasn't there in the run up to it either. So, there are complicating factors for the bus industry as well.
I notice on page 30 of the report that James Price, for Transport for Wales, has said that transport modelling and the integration agenda are key to resolving all these issues. Well, again, integration in the public transport system is something that we've been talking about for as long as I can remember in this Chamber. It's a great idea in principle. I remember back to when James Price came to the—when I was Chair of the Enterprise and Business Committee in the last Assembly, and he came along, and I can't remember which witness it was, but one of them said that integration is a great idea in principle, but devilishly difficult to achieve in practice. Well, here we are, some years on from that, and we still haven't achieved that integration, that Oyster-type system that they have in London, that we were looking at here once. Hopefully, one day, we will achieve integration. It's clear from reading this report that that is essential, vital, and part of the answer in delivering decarbonisation and solving the climate change problem.
So, in conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, we must strive for integration, along with electrification of private and public transport—key to decarbonisation. I'm delighted that this report was brought to this Chamber today and I want to thank the Chair of the committee and the committee for the work they've done on this. It's been an interesting read as a non-member of the committee. There's a lot of interesting stuff in here, which must be pushed forward if we're to meet our goals, meet UK and Welsh Government targets, and bring to fruition a cleaner, greener and more sustainable future.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I wasn't a member of the committee when evidence was taken for this report, so I've really enjoyed reading the work and discussing informally with colleagues, and it certainly is an impressive piece of work, challenging Welsh Government where it needs to be challenged, but supporting it too where the committee felt that they were heading in the right direction.
I don't want to repeat comments that others have made, Dirprwy Lywydd, I just want to highlight a couple of issues. I want to come back to the points that have already been touched on briefly about electric vehicle charging points. Now, I know that the Deputy Minister will say—or I imagine he'll say, and he'd be quite right—that of course we need to achieve modal shift. We don't want to replace a whole fleet of diesel- and petrol-powered cars with people still using electric cars to the same extent. But there will always be either people's individual circumstances, or communities where running public transport on a large scale—you know, much of the area of Mid and West Wales that I represent, that's not going to be feasible. And I do have some frustration about the slowness with which we've rolled out the electric charging points. There are lots of people I know in the region that I represent who would love to be able to consider an electric vehicle and they just can't, because there's nowhere within the journeys that they travel where they can charge it other than at home.
So, we have a lot of work to do there, and I think it is important that that's not at the expense of investing in public transport and investing in modal shift, but it is still an important part of the decarbonisation agenda. Because, as the Deputy Minister has said a couple of times in the Chamber recently, we perhaps in the past have maybe underestimated the importance of decarbonising transport, and I'd certainly agree with him there that it's not necessarily the first thing that anybody thinks about when they think about the green agenda, but, of course, it is enormously important.
I would just comment briefly on the integration agenda. Nick Ramsay is right to say that we've been talking about this for years, but I would also put it to him that it's the legislative structure around buses and rail that's kept them in the private sector that has actually made some of that integration really difficult to achieve. And the next Welsh Government, whoever forms it, will have to give some serious thought to going back to the bus legislation and possibly going further—obviously, that legislation couldn't proceed because of COVID, but possibly going back to that legislation, possibly taking an even more clear approach. Because the Government at the moment is looking to use contracting with private companies to promote integration, but, in the end, there is that ongoing risk that, if they're not making enough of a profit, they'll walk away. And if we look at successful integrated systems, particularly on the continent of Europe, those are usually public sector. So, we have to acknowledge that that lack of progress on integration may not be the fault of successive Welsh Governments alone; it's the fault of the framework within which they work.
I want to return to a point that was briefly touched upon by Russell George, and that's some of the work of the future generations commissioner's 10-point plan on the climate emergency, which talked about how the Welsh Government should be investing in sustainable transport, including the decarbonisation agenda. She puts forward strongly, and I would concur, that we really need to be able to see—. To be able to successfully scrutinise the Welsh Government on this agenda, we need to be able to see how the money is being spent. If decarbonisation is a priority, how are Welsh Government actions, particularly the budget—how is that following that agenda?
Now, I wouldn't ask the Deputy Minister to be responsible for the whole of the Welsh Government budget, because that wouldn't be fair, but I would like to ask him today to what extent, within the economy and transport budget, are the Government able, at this stage, to track their spending against the green agenda and the decarbonisation agenda more broadly. Is there anything further that needs to be done to make that happen? Is there further advice that he needs to seek?
Because we do—. Deputy Presiding Officer, in Welsh we have a saying, 'Diwedd y gân yw'r geiniog'—at the end of every song there's always the penny—and we say, don't we, 'Follow the money'? We can talk about what we think is important, but, in terms of public spending and where the money actually goes, I think it's really important for a successor committee to the economy and transport committee to be able to see, when it looks at the budget, how the budgeting is matching the Government's ambitions when it comes, in the case of today's discussion, to the decarbonisation of transport, but more broadly around the green agenda.
So, I'd like, once again, to thank the members of the committee that did take the evidence and to thank the Chair and all of the staff—a really important piece of work and I look forward to the other contributions to the debate, and particularly to hearing what the Deputy Minister has to say.

David J Rowlands AC: First, can I congratulate the committee on an excellent report? It really is an in-depth study that includes many positive suggestions. Can I also acknowledge the Government's entirely positive response to the report? It must be one of the first Government responses to a report I've seen that doesn't have an 'accept in principle' in it.
Given the Welsh Government's commitment to a carbon-free Wales, the content of the report is particularly important if this is to be achieved in the timescale envisaged. It does, of course, raise many questions—as many questions as answers—but it does give a road map as to what has to be done to achieve the Government's aims, because transport, in all its forms, will play a critical role in creating a carbon-free economy.
Given the comprehensive nature of the report, I shall confine myself to certain aspects of the conclusions outlined in it. First, if we are to increase exponentially the use of electric cars, we have to put in place, first, the grid capacity to accommodate the huge surge in demand for electricity that will inevitably take place as the number of electric vehicles grows. Secondly, we have to roll out the charging facilities available across the country—this has been mentioned several times by other Members in this debate. This is, of course, a chicken-and-egg scenario, in that we have to provide the facilities to entice people to take up EVs, even if the facilities may not be fully used for some time. I would envisage that the private sector would be involved in this roll-out. Could the Minister give us some indication as to how this roll-out is progressing?
The crucial element outlined in the report is that we will not be able to achieve the modal shift necessary unless we have the facilities and infrastructure in place to entice the population to abandon the car. It has to be said that the Welsh Government have made considerable strides in enhancing the public transport offer over the last few years, but, of course, COVID has disrupted the take-up of the increased capacity. I know we are all encouraged by the metro plans and the Government's determination to make connectivity between the various modes of transport as seamless as possible. Could the Minister outline any progress being made with regard to multi-modal ticketing facilities?
Lastly, can I address the need to perhaps fundamentally change the provision of bus facilities, given that they are by far the biggest transporters of people? The use of 50-plus seater buses to carry just a few passengers in off-peak periods has to change. Bus operators must be encouraged to replace the large fleets of such buses for a much more mixed offer—that is, a greater acquisition and use of smaller vehicles. The transition from diesel to electric should give them the opportunity to effect these changes. So, could the Minister outline the Government's plans to effect this modal change? Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Rhianon Passmore AC: This important report by the Senedd/Welsh Parliament's committee is as important as it is timely. The urgent matters affecting our globe remain with us, in addition to and not outside the COVID, and the climate emergency remains with us. Carbon cuts need to happen, and they need to happen rapidly. Again a dire warning has come from the United Nations, and the United Nations Secretary General, António Guterres, is urging people around the world to stop waging what he calls 'a suicidal war' on nature, as do so many globally recognised eminent scientists, agencies and influencers, such as Greta Thunberg and our very own Ella Daish, long campaigning to change Tampax and others to switch to non-plastic sanitary products.
These latest warnings come as the World Meteorological Organization states that this year will be one of the third hottest on record, just behind 2016 and 2019. And despite all the pollution haltage of COVID, still global warming is rising. The six-year quartile from 2015 to now will be the warmest on record since 1850. And 2020 has seen the most serious impacts of this warming in the UK, with the deadly floods in February, the warmest spring on record, with a record 30 named storms having ravaged, including the wild fires destroying communities across the US and Australia.
So, it is right to see the Senedd's Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee tackle this topic of decarbonisation of transport, and it is heartening too to see the Welsh Labour Government's positive response to the report's recommendations and its actions already on the record. In particular, I was struck by recommendation 3, which strongly calls to discourage private car use. Members will be cognisant that only a few weeks ago we received the final recommendations, 'One region, one network, one ticket', from the South East Wales Transport Commission, led by Lord Burns.
The creation of a direct railway service between Ebbw Vale and Newport is an issue I have campaigned for in this Senedd since 2016, and I am very glad to see that it will be realised now, in our efforts to provide alternative means of modal transport. The Burns report recommends completing the upgrade of the Ebbw Vale line, including the branch to a new station at Abertillery, as already proposed by Welsh Government, to allow for four trains per hour along the line and to provide services directly to Newport. And it is practical measures such as these that will serve my constituents well in Islwyn, in the railway towns of Crosskeys, Risca and Newbridge.
But there is still very much to do, and although a critical journey has begun, this committee report is a welcome further station to our destination, and what this Senedd ambitiously wants now, including former carbon deniers, and that is a carbon-neutral future for our future generations. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I now call on the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport, Lee Waters?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you very much, and can I thank Members and the committee for the debate and the report? The coronavirus pandemic provides a powerful reminder that we are still vulnerable to nature, and it also serves to demonstrate that the way we treat the natural world has the potential to impact on each of us, in a very visceral and personal way too.
Arguably, climate change represents a greater threat than the pandemic, albeit over longer timescales, and tackling climate change is hugely important to this Government, and we've already made bold, early strides in declaring a climate emergency and in setting targets for decarbonisation. Transport in particular has a big role to play in getting us on to a lower carbon path, and I appreciate the challenge and the scrutiny of the report, and we're going to need more of it if, collectively, we are going to confront the challenges that decarbonising the transport system presents, and it will take years of effort.
Fortunately, it's not all doom and gloom—there are opportunities here too. The UK Committee on Climate Change predict that transitioning to a zero-emission technology base across all transport modes will actually save, not cost money—more than £200 million between now and 2050 in Wales alone. And the UK Committee on Climate Change have indicated that Wales is on track to meet the emission target set out in our very first low-carbon delivery plan. We're now developing the second iteration of this plan, which we'll publish next year to coincide with COP26, and we need to make better progress in transport meeting its share.
Helen Mary Jones rightly challenged us to demonstrate how we are tracking our carbon budgets with the decarbonisation targets that we have set ourselves, and I think that is the right challenge. We have commissioned, as part of the Wales transport strategy work, Arup and Transport for Quality of Life to come up with a detailed analysis of what contribution transport must make to our overall targets, so that when we make decisions about individual road schemes, for example, or other transport interventions, we're able to know how much headroom we have within the targets that we have set, so we can make informed judgments, which currently we are not able to make. I think that will be a very important step forward for future transport Ministers to be able to inform them in their decisions.
We've also published our ambitions and targets on electric vehicle charging and our clean air plan. These strategies and plans set the framework for delivery over the coming years and we have made a reasonable start, allocating funding this year from the ultra low emission vehicle transformation fund to support 34 rapid charging points for taxis and private hire vehicles in the Cardiff city region; Wales's first rapid charging hub at Cross Hands in Carmarthenshire; charging points in Anglesey; and electric buses in Cardiff and Newport. These are modest first steps but important ones nonetheless.
And whilst very significant further investment will be required to deliver decarbonisation, some elements of behaviour change will be necessary too, and that will require difficult political choices and strong leadership, not just at a Government level but at a local level too. And Members of the Senedd in their own local leadership roles need to show the courage and leadership to make these decisions too. For example, what role might road-user charging play? As we made clear just two weeks ago, the Welsh Government has no fixed view on this yet, but we do have a responsibility to consider how it might be used to effect behaviour change in a fair, in a just way. The evidence shows that we need both carrot and stick to achieve the changes that we will require.
We should also be mindful of the UK Government's role and the levers they retain. For example, control over Wales's rail infrastructure, certain reserved regulatory powers, and powers to set incentives for electric vehicles, and we await publication of their first transport decarbonisation plan in the new year. The recent Wales Climate Week demonstrated our continued commitment to responding to the climate crisis with a collaborative approach, and we'll continue to work closely with the UK Government to ensure that policy outcomes work for Wales.
We do stand at an important moment, Dirprwy Lywydd. Tackling climate change will be the defining challenge of our generation and Wales has a great opportunity to be a leader in this. To capitalise on this, we need to act quickly and increasingly concentrate our efforts on decarbonisation, and stop thinking about what we can do by 2050 and think what more we can do now. The arguments to do are simple: decarbonisation, it's not a case of if, it's a case of when. The faster we act, the lesser the impact will be and the greater the benefits, and I'd strongly encourage the committee to keep pushing us. Diolch.

Thank you. I have no Member who's indicated they want to make an intervention, and therefore I'll call on Russell George to reply to the debate.

Russell George AC: Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank the Members who have taken part today? I think there was quite a bit of discussion in terms of climate change in the main—I think Nick Ramsay and Rhianon Passmore in particular. And, interestingly, the UN Secretary-General made a statement on this today with regard to the importance of the UN's work in this important area.
I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for his contribution. I thank him for his work as the chair of the cross-party group on active travel. I very much listened to his ideas. I welcome the proposal he made in terms of testing active travel projects; I think, of course, that is welcome as well. We didn't look into freight in any detail, Huw, I would say in that regard, but outside committee I've done work around that myself—I've taken a particular interest in that area. But I think in that particular instance, I think perhaps Welsh Government can set out its thoughts in terms of its low-carbon budget plan. And then there are the low-carbon flights that Huw Irranca-Davies mentioned as well. We didn't take evidence on that either in this particular piece of work, but we have taken evidence on that since, in work in terms of the COVID recovery. What we have heard is that Wales is in a good place in terms of being able to take a positive lead on hydrogen aircraft, but that will need, of course, big investment, but I think this can certainly be part of wider COVID recovery.
Helen Mary Jones pointed out about Welsh Government going further on bus legislation and support and integration. I think, of course, now this is going to be for the next Welsh Government to clearly take forward. And, of course, it's relevant as well for each party represented in the Senedd to consider their own party manifestos. But I've made a note, because I think it's important that we look at that in terms of our legacy report, and making those recommendations for a future committee to do further work on.
David Rowlands referenced the grid capacity, and that's something that we did look at in committee, and something I take an interest in myself. What else have we got here? I thank the Deputy Minister for his comments. I can say that, you know, again he missed the point about the progress that the Government has made, and I suppose I'd point out that committee will keep challenging Government in that regard.
In terms of the rest of the other points made, can I thank all those who did contribute to our debate? I thank, of course, all those that gave evidence—written evidence and oral evidence—to our inquiry. Can I thank the committee team—the clerking team and the integrated team—for all their support as well? I think decarbonisation is a challenge that Governments around the world are grappling with, and I think perhaps the pandemic has created both opportunities and challenges in this regard, with the increase in telecommuting, but also the need to reassure people that public transport is safe—I think that's probably perhaps the challenge ahead. But the formation of the new Wales transport strategy and delivery plans, I think, presents an opportunity to lock in some of the benefits from what continues to be an increasingly difficult situation. So, can I thank all those who have taken part, and those who contributed to our piece of work? Diolch yn fawr. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I don't see any objections, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We are now going to suspend proceedings to allow changeovers in the Chamber. If you are leaving the Chamber, can you do so promptly? The bell will be rung two minutes before proceedings restart, and Members are asked to wait until that bell is rung before entering the Chamber. So, we now suspend for a break.

Plenary was suspended at 16:58.

The Senedd reconvened at 17:06, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

8. Plaid Cymru Debate: The food sector

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Rebecca Evans, and amendment 2 in the name of Darren Millar. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

The next item is the Plaid Cymru debate on the food sector. I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move the motion. Llyr Gruffydd.

Motion NDM7495 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the importance of the food sector to a broad range of policy agendas in Wales, including the environment, health, economy and poverty.
2. Regrets the lack of alignment to provide a coherent national food policy within Welsh Government food strategies and action plans over the past decade.
3. Recognises that the COVID-19 pandemic has exposed the vulnerabilities of our current food system.
4. Praises the role that Welsh farmers and producers play in keeping our shelves stocked.
5. Understands that the climate, nature and biodiversity crises increases the likelihood of extreme weather events which will heavily impact the global food system.
6. Notes that 14 per cent of UK families with children have experienced food insecurity between Marchand August 2020, and that the Trussell Trust gave out 70,393 emergency food parcels in Wales between April and September 2020.
7. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) move towards a more coherent approach to food policy in Wales by bringing together a cross-sector food system commission to be tasked with developing a roadmap to deliver a food system fit for future generations;
b) ensure food systems are more resilient to external factors in the long-term, such as the climate crisis;
c) develop local processing capacity across Wales;
d) increase procurement of Welsh food and drink amongst public services.

Motion moved.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. It's a pleasure to introduce this motion in the name of Plaid Cymru this afternoon. As the motion recognises, the food sector is important and very significant for us here in Wales, but it is also fair to say that the pandemic has highlighted vulnerabilities in the current food system—vulnerabilities that may have been there for a while but have become more prominent over the past 12 months. And that in turn has highlighted to many of us how Welsh Government policies in food have tended to operate in silos. There's a great focus on the economic impact of the sector, and that's understandable, but not so much on the social, cultural and health impacts of the broader food sector.
The motive behind this motion today is the need for us to think of the food system in a more holistic manner. We need a food system in Wales that better links production, manufacturing and processing, retail, the consumption of food and education. We need to bring all of those things together and have one single, integrated approach across the food system, from farm to fork and beyond. And what we mean, of course, by 'food system' is all of those stakeholders, all of the relationships related to growing, producing, supplying and using food. It includes fisheries, agriculture, food production, retail, food services, consumption and food waste, too, at the other end of the spectrum.
It includes social and economic factors that drive options in terms of food, and it cuts across all policy areas, including the economy, the environment, of course, business, education, well-being, health, transport, trade, planning and local government. It is pertinent to almost everybody. And this moment is an opportunity for us to build back better, as people tend to say. But with COVID-19 having highlighted and intensified many of the vulnerabilities within our system, then building a more resilient and sustainable system will be an important part of the work in preventing similar crises to the ones that we have seen recently, as we move forward. And it will be a key part of our route towards a green recovery and a just recovery.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Plaid Cymru wants to see a Wales, of course, where everybody has access—dignified access—to enough food, to nutritious food, sustainably produced food, in a way, of course, that secures a fair income for farmers and all food sector workers. Our food system can contribute significantly to Wales's collective prosperity when it's shaped through the lens of well-being economics and the principles of the circular and foundational economies. And of course, well-being economics is all about taking account of quality of life, rather than just the growth rates of a country's GDP or GVA. We need a shared vision based on those principles across all Government departments, along with the broader food system stakeholders, so that we can ensure that all aspects of the food system are considered and integrated. I passionately believe that a well-functioning food system is crucial to our nation's future, it's central to our health and well-being, to our culture, to our society, the environment, of course, and the economy. And in order to deliver a food system fit for future generations with all the benefits this will bring, the Welsh Government needs to develop a food system strategy for Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: So, what's wrong with the Welsh Government's approach at the moment? Well, we can look at a selection of its strategies and policies around agriculture, food and drink, and there's a plethora of them: we have 'Food for Wales, Food from Wales: Food Strategy for Wales', the food and drink action plan, the strategic action plan for the Welsh red meat industry, the horticulture strategic action plan, the dairy sector strategy, the food tourism action plan for Wales, the Wales seafood strategy, et cetera. All well and good, of course, in their own right; they all set out important objectives and actions. But where, or at what point, do they all come together? Where is the alignment that ultimately and collectively provides a coherent national policy?
The former Minister for Natural Resources and former Deputy Minister for Farming and Food asked the Public Policy Institute for Wales to provide advice on whether the Welsh Government's food strategy was sufficiently comprehensive and up to date, and the review made a number of recommendations, which I'm afraid appear to have been largely ignored. In the report, they conclude that—and I quote—
'Weaknesses and blockages in the governance of food policy in Wales since 2010, coupled now with a greater understanding on the interconnected vulnerabilities which underpin sustainable food systems, mean that there is an urgent need to develop a fresh and clear vision and strategy for the food system in Wales.'
And of course, that doesn't just mean rewriting the food and drink strategy; it needs to go much wider and it needs to go much deeper than that.
So, Plaid Cymru is calling for the Welsh Government to establish a cross-sector food system commission. We're adding our voice to those calling for this commission to be tasked with developing a road map towards a food system that's fit for future generations. That was, of course, as Members will be aware, I'm sure, a key demand of the significant work commissioned by the WWF on this, supported by the Food Policy Alliance Cymru and others, who want the proposed road map to specifically consider six priorities. Firstly, there's access to food, and that Wales becomes the first nation to eliminate the need for foodbanks, and that everyone in Wales has dignified access to the food they need to live a healthy life. And that leads to the second priority, of course, which is food for public health, building on the Welsh Government's strategy to promote healthy and balanced diets by ensuring its recommended vegetable consumption is actually produced sustainably in Wales, meaning of course a big increase in domestic horticulture and the growing of vegetables in Wales. Next is the need for a net-zero-carbon food system, which is self-explanatory, as is the need to adopt more agroecological principles across the whole food system, in order to halt and reverse the loss of nature, and of course to increase climate resilience. Achieving sustainable seafood is another of the priorities outlined, setting catch limits that enable fish stocks to be restored and maintained above biomass levels that deliver the maximum sustainable yield, and finally a priority around creating sustainable food sector jobs and livelihoods; everyone who earns their living within the food system should receive or be able to receive at least the living wage or a fair return for their work, and work, of course, that is also free from exploitative practices.
If the pandemic has taught us anything, it's that just as we should never again take for granted our health and care workers, neither should we ever again take for granted those who produce and supply the food we eat. COVID-19 has really underscored the value of having an indigenous primary production base, particularly of course in a world where supply chains are so complex, operating on a just-in-time basis and quite easily disrupted, as they have been in recent times and even before the imminent end of the Brexit transition period. Insulating those supply chains from shocks presents a real challenge, and one way to achieve this is through shortening our supply chains, meaning increased local processing. And more local processing has a huge role to play in helping create a more sustainable food system in Wales.
The reality, though, is that recent AHDB statistics suggest that Wales has the capacity to process less than half of the milk that we produce. Most of the milk produced in Wales, one of the biggest milk fields in Europe, is taken out of Wales to be processed. Millions of gallons of liquid milk are shipped out every year, and hundreds of thousands of tonnes of dairy produce shipped back in. Well, how many food miles does that represent, I wonder? And a review of the beef sector in Wales in 2014 found that 72 per cent of Welsh cattle were slaughtered outside of Wales. Of British sheep, 31 per cent are bred in Wales, but only 24 per cent are slaughtered in Wales. So, all of this represents value lost, income lost and jobs lost to the Welsh economy, let alone, of course, the huge carbon emissions cost that comes with it. This really has to change.
Now, the obvious solution to this is to increase Welsh processing capacity across the board, meaning not only halting but reversing trends regarding the number of small abattoirs in Wales, which has halved over the past 25 years. I think only around 18 still exist, and for dairy processing, living as I do in north-east Wales, of course, we've seen just in the last couple of years how we've lost Arla in Llandyrnog, Tomlinsons in Wrexham—major milk processors here in north-east Wales. So, reversing the loss of this provision would be a positive move for the communities who live and work in rural areas, it would be good for animal welfare as well, of course, in that you're not moving as many animals around the country, it would be good for tackling climate change, and good for the rural economy. That, of course, is the well-being economics lens I mentioned earlier—the new world view that I thought the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 was supposed to embed in Welsh public policy.
Now, my colleagues will expand on other aspects that need to be addressed in this debate, such as the role of public procurement, the importance of buying local food, the role of food in the green recovery, food poverty and the health impacts of food, and I'll address the amendments tabled by the other parties in my closing remarks after listening to the contributions of others. In normal circumstances, of course, this week many of us would have attended the Royal Welsh winter fair, one of the finest prime stock shows in Europe, drawing crowds from far and wide to enjoy two days packed full of competitions, festivities, Christmas shopping and, of course, a wonderful showcase for the best that we have to offer in terms of Welsh food.
But there are, of course, systemic problems within the wider food system in Wales that urgently need addressing. Too many people in Wales can't afford access to a healthy diet. The food system has negative impacts on the environment, on public health, and on our economic well-being, and all of this is hindering our ability to prosper as a nation. The Welsh Government needs to urgently bring forward a more coherent approach to food policy in Wales. I look forward to hearing contributions from all sides of the Chamber. Diolch.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Minister.

Amendment 1—Rebecca Evans
Delete all and replace with:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that access to food and protection of the environment is achieved by raising skills, raising incomes and enabling collaborative action on the ground between communities, businesses and public bodies.
2. Welcomes the report by the Sustainable Places Research Institute at Cardiff University and agrees that new food infrastructure and delivery mechanisms should be guided by the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the five ways of working.
3. Calls on Welsh Government:
a) to bring together farmers, food businesses, public bodies and civil society to work towards a shared vision for a food system fit for future generations;
b) to replace the system of basic payment farm subsidy based on land-area farmed to a system where all public money supports the delivery of environmental outcomes alongside high quality food;
c) to promote fair work and innovation in the food sector in Wales to help create more well-paid jobs in the foundational economy;
d) to support community food growing and food re-use projects in every community in Wales.

Amendment 1 moved.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Formally.

'Formally'. I'm a good lip-reader. I could just about lip-read the 'formally' there by the Minister. I now call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move amendment 2. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
Add as new sub-points at end of point 7:
introduce a local food and drink charter to encourage shops, cafés, and restaurants to sell locally sourced Welsh food and drink and help promote the scheme to consumers;
develop a tourism strategy to promote food and drink trails and experiences across Wales;
work with the Her Majesty’s Government to promote Welsh food and drink overseas.

Amendment 2 moved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I stand to, obviously, move the amendment tabled by Darren Millar, and to thank Llyr Gruffydd for bringing this debate on behalf of Plaid Cymru forward. Now, with this week seeing us mark the Royal Welsh winter fair, I'm delighted that we're able to hold this debate, but I agree with Llyr on how sad it is that we cannot come together in person to be at this wonderful event.
Now, it is quite right that we praise the role that our Welsh farmers and producers play in keeping our shelves stocked. The magnitude of panic buying in spring saw UK consumers transfer £1.5 billion of food into the home in less than one month. The pandemic has also exposed the vulnerabilities of our current food system, and that farmers are open to a disproportionate share of risk. We saw devastation in our dairy industry. The Farmers Union of Wales has highlighted that almost 50 per cent of dairy businesses in Wales have been highly impacted as a result of the pandemic, yet only 10 per cent were eligible for the dairy support scheme.
The pandemic has also triggered a shift in national food policy. Russia, Ukraine and India have taken steps to limit the export of strategically important foodstuffs such as wheat. Now, if export controls become more frequent, there could be a real impact on global food supplies. So, more than ever, we need to be supporting our Welsh farmers to maintain productivity. This should, however, be kept in mind by the Ministerin bringing forward her White Paper, and also to carefully consider when discussing the calls in the Cardiff University WWF report for agro-ecological principles to become central to food policy. The report provides an example of a mixed organic farm. There is a risk to Wales becoming 100 per cent organic, because the study has actually found that this would yield up to 40 per cent less food, leading to increasing imports and a net increase in greenhouse gas emissions. So, we do need to strike the right balance that does not undermine local high-quality food production nor, indeed, the climate.
Now, the WWF report recommends that aiming for 2 per cent of land area to be dedicated to horticultural production could form a policy tool. This is what is required in order for Wales to produce the amount of greens needed to meet five servings a day, but I believe that the increase in horticulture should come as a result of local purchasing practices. There are plans and actions that we can plough ahead with: fostering more sites for food markets; developing a network of food hubs; creating community herb and vegetable gardens; making orchards of disused publicly-owned green spaces; supporting the development of food processors in Wales; introducing a local food and drink charter to encourage shops, cafes and restaurants to sell locally-sourced Welsh food and drink and to help promote such a scheme to consumers; and develop food and drink trails and experiences for all our constituencies here in Wales. This championing of localism is also reflected in the WWF report.
Another brilliant way to achieve this is via public procurement. The Welsh Government is failing to track product origin in their Welsh public sector procurement recording tool. Just imagine the difference the annual procurement spend of around £78 million on food and drink would make if the items purchased originated here in Wales. In fact, my policy and passion that puts Welsh food and localism first sits beautifully within the future generations Act. For example, by re-localising our food production and consumption, and promoting shorter supply chains, we can become globally responsible. We can help the Welsh culture and language to thrive, and we can create a healthier Wales.
During the NFU Cymru winter fair seminar, it was clear that there is huge potential to also boost business by selling our sustainable produce to the world. Examples, of course, include exporting to China, which, as a consequence of the shortage of protein in their diet, is now well placed to import Welsh lamb. Exporting potential is one reason why it is essential for us to work with Her Majesty's Government to promote Welsh food and drink overseas. The Welsh Government could help greatly by introducing a statutory target for improving the shelf life of Welsh lamb, so that it can better compete with New Zealand.
Finally, I cautiously welcome the calls for a commission, but would like Plaid Cymru to clarify why we should not turn to the food and drink industry board as a means of leading on a food system strategy. Importantly, either approach could enable the vision to be co-produced between Government, farmers, food businesses and other stakeholders. However, this is yet another example of a major problem in this Parliament and Government: deliberating and not delivering. 'Food from Wales, Food for Wales 2010-2020' has never been fully implemented. In 2018—

You're going to have to bring your contribution to a close.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: In 2018, the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee concluded that there is a need for a strategic vision for the Welsh food sector. We will be supporting Plaid Cymru's motion today, and we hope that you will back our amendments. Thank you. Diolch.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I think we must remember the huge importance of the food and drink industry now here in Wales. And just to give a couple of examples, the industry as it stands—and we could, of course, do so much more—has a £22.1 billion turnover and employs 229,000 workers directly, and there is a bit of a tendency, sometimes, to think that all of those are not good-quality jobs and that that's not a sector to aspire to, but that simply isn't true, although there is much we can do to improve the quality of some of that work. The food and drink industry can be a great place for young people to build a career, and I think we need to send that message clearly, and that's right across the industry, from the very beginning, where the produce originates on the farm, right the way through to where we sell it. As Llyr has said, it's a vital part of our economy, but it's also so much more than that.

Helen Mary Jones AC: The COVID crisis has shown us all, I think, how important local food supply can be, and how the current industrial food system is failing. It's failing producers, it's failing processors and it's failing those of us who eat and drink the food.
There have been many stories, Llywydd, around the time of COVID, that have been heartbreaking for all of us, but one that really upset me was taking a phone call from a farmer in Hendy in Carmarthenshire at the beginning of the COVID crisis, who was having to pour his milk down the drain, because his customers were a business that mainly sold to the hospitality business—coffee shops and so on—outside Wales, and they simply told him that they didn't need his milk. And the nature of their contract was that it was actually quite difficult for him to sell it to anybody else. And worse for him and his family, a couple of miles up the road in Llanelli, were families who were losing work, with more and more families depending on foodbanks, and yet, he couldn't even give that milk away, because there was no capacity to sell it on.
Well, the Beynon-Thomas family took a long look at that and they decided that they couldn't tolerate that, and in a very short space of time, they converted one of their outbuildings into a small-scale pasteurising centre and they're selling milk through a milk vending machine, which, I have to say, was something that I'd never heard of before. And there are so many advantages to that. People locally can buy a really fresh, local product, and all the profit goes back into the farm and is then spent locally. Ifan Beynon-Thomas, the young farmer who set this initiative going, his father said to me that he thought he was crazy when he started to talk about a milk vending machine, but now, his father, of course, can see the profit going straight into the farm. They've done so well that they've almost paid off their debt in a matter of months and they are on the point of creating a new job because the demand has been so great that Ifan can't keep up with that and all his other farming responsibilities. And this, to me, is a great example of what we could do, on a small scale, but the demand has been huge and now he's selling into local businesses as well, and can expand his pasteurising capacity. And, he can give milk away; it doesn't have to go to waste. That's just one very small local example of what we can do and what we need to invest in.
The other issue that was highlighted through the COVID crisis in the region that I represent is the importance of public procurement and local public procurement. We all remember—I've mentioned it in the Chamber before—the food boxes for our shielding fellow citizens that were being bought from a big, UK-wide company. Some of the food was unsuitable and some of it was turning up actually off. When the second round—and I'm not blaming the Government in the crisis for going for one big supplier—but when the second round of those food boxes was able to go out, Carmarthenshire County Council was able to use Castell Howell, a local food supplier in Cross Hands; the quality of the produce was much better and it was much more appropriate for people in those communities and, of course, all that money is then recycled into local jobs and into the local community. We have to—and others have touched on this—stop the bleeding out of the public sector spend on food. Forty-five per cent of what our public sector spends on food in Wales—and as others have said, that's over £70 million a year—goes outside Wales. We have to be able to decrease that.
Llywydd, the industrial food system doesn't work as it stands. It leaves people in food poverty. I'm full of praise for what the volunteers in local foodbanks do, but I am full of shame that, in one of the richest countries in the world, people have to depend on foodbanks, and Llyr Gruffydd has touched on food poverty. Our food producers are often fragile as businesses; they often can't sell at the rate—they can't even make a profit. And we face profiteering by some of the really big companies, and when I look at what some of the supermarkets and some of the other big wholesalers pay to our farmers, I don't apologise for use of the word 'profiteering'.
We need, as Llyr said, to align all the food initiatives. Each of them is positive in itself, but it needs to be consistent. We need that cross-sector commission to develop a road map to a comprehensive food policy that delivers for us all.

Jenny Rathbone AC: So far, everybody's talked quite a lot about COVID and what it's told us, but nobody's mentioned the elephant in the room, which is the end of the European Union transition period, happening in less than a month. In that small amount of time, we potentially face the most momentous upheaval in our food supply chains, which will make queues at supermarkets in March look like a tea party by comparison.
So, I'm clear that the Welsh Government's end of transition action plan admits that fruit and vegetables are likely to be disrupted—we like to think of Britain as a green and pleasant land, but these are mainly imported from the EU, particularly in the winter. We won't starve, but choice is going to be limited, prices are almost certainly going to rise, and it is hospitals, care homes and schools, as well as the most vulnerable in our community, who've also been worst affected by the pandemic, who are likely to suffer most from the shortage of fresh food.
The Welsh Government is doing its best to work with food businesses to avert a crisis, we are told, and I'm sure we'd like to know a great deal more about that. I have endeavoured to get information from the top four supermarkets in this country, but they say that commercial confidentiality—or at least Tesco does—is preventing them telling us exactly what their plans are, given that their model for 'just in time' is absolutely not going to work in this scenario.
The National Audit Office has warned that, whilst there has been progress in UK Government departments, it is still likely that widespread disruption will occur from 1 January. The House of Lords has similarly warned this; the chair of the UK Parliament's Public Accounts Committee has warned it. It is the UK Government that decided not to seek an extension to the transition period, because the Maoists within the UK Government seem determined to go ahead with the biggest change in our trading relationship in the most inauspicious of circumstances, in the middle of winter and in the middle of a pandemic. That enthusiasm for what they call a 'clean break' is what could yet see them take us over a cliff into crashing out of the EU without a deal.
With four weeks to go before the end of the transition period, traders and logistics providers are still waiting for much of the information and clarity from Government, and they are just shocked by the lack of consistency in Government policy. Duncan Buchanan, the policy director of the Road Haulage Association, has said that, from January, he is expecting something 'between shocking and a catastrophe.'It could take up to eight weeks for goods to come in by truck once we take back control of our borders, and all the evidence is that the UK Government will simply try to blame everybody but themselves for this situation.
A leaked letter from the Cabinet Office Minister, Michael Gove, to logistics organisations, pins the blame on them and says that queues of up to 7,000 lorries are all the fault of the companies for not being prepared. He assumes that, once heavy goods vehicles realise that they're going to have to comply with the new regulations, they will simply disappear over time. Presumably, that is why they're building a 27-acre lorry park in Kent.
These warnings have come from the National Farmers Union, the Farmers Union of Wales, the Federation of Small Businesses. One food expert described to me, 'Nothing is ready, nothing will work. It is expected that the whole system of importing and exporting will collapse, and, on top of bad weather and COVID, it will be a tragedy of our own making.'
So, this has to concentrate our minds now. There are some excellent suggestions in the report that was commissioned by the WWF, but we have to do something now. We have to ensure that we massively ramp up our horticulture. The Welsh Government has provided small grants of between £3,000 and £12,000 to do that, and the economy Minister has provided over £400,000 for a foundational economy grant for controlled-environment growing, otherwise known as hydroponics. It seems to me that that's exactly the sort of thing we need to be ramping up now.
We need to stop local authorities from selling off county farms, which is one of the ways in which we find new entrants into agriculture, because I'm afraid I disagree with Janet Finch-Saunders that we can simply go on with the same old system we've got at the moment, and ensuring that people can't be in any way—. They need to—. Farmers need to maintain productivity; we can't undermine that. We've got to change the way we do things, because of our nature crisis, apart from anything else, and we've got to ensure that we have local food for local people, to ensure that we have the public health gains we absolutely need to make in the next period.
So, these matters are going to be discussed further at the cross-party group on food tomorrow, and, obviously, I'd be very keen to see any of you who are able to come along and ensure that we have a better food policy for dealing with these matters in the sixth Parliament.

Delyth Jewell AC: This debate is about the food sector, but what I'd like to talk about first is the effect that the absence of food has on too many people in our society. Because, although the UK is the seventh richest economy in the world, too many households struggle to afford the food that they need to stay healthy, and that has an effect on not just people's physical health, their alertness and strength, but also their mental health, their anxiety, stress levels and mood.
Between 2017 and 2018, 20 per cent of people in Wales were worried about running out of food, and 14 per cent had to run out of food in the first place before they could afford to buy more. These figures, I'm afraid to say, are likely to have increased in recent months because of the effect of the virus on employment levels. We've heard already in this debate about the need to keep supply chains working so that the sector is fit for purpose. We also have to consider the chain effect of supplies not going far enough. One in three children in Wales are living in poverty, and the Trussell Trust gave out 70,393 emergency food parcels in Wales between April and September of this year. Now, I thank the Trussell Trust and their volunteers for what they're doing, but, as my colleague Helen Mary Jones has said, there's something deeply worrying within a society where either foodbanks are being relied on or emergency food parcels are needed. That's why we in Plaid Cymru would provide targeted payments to families living in poverty, introducing a Welsh child payment of £35 a week for the 65,000 children in Wales who are eligible for free school meals.
Llywydd, I've talked here about the most extreme examples, albeit a situation that is devastatingly common—that is, people struggling to afford to eat enough. But, for other households, the issue is more about being able to afford good quality, nutritious food. The Food Foundation has found that 160,000 children in Wales are living in households where a healthy diet is unaffordable. I know that I'm quoting statistics from the report here that's been cited a number of times already in this debate, but 28 per cent of children are obese and 94 per cent don't have access to five portions of fruit and vegetables a day. The problems have been well rehearsed before—cheap and highly processed foods are promoted widely, and I do see—. The Welsh Government's 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy has started to try to address this, but it does address it in a slioed way—the point that Llyr Gruffydd was warning about at the beginning of this debate. It doesn't look at the impact of food marketing and advertising, production or the cost of living. We have to tackle this scourge for the sake of families across Wales. But it goes far wider than this. As this WWF-commissioned report that we've all been quoting says, problems in the food system impact negatively on the environment, on public health and economic well-being, and, crucially, and I quote, they hinder
'our ability to prosper as a nation both now and in the future.'
A well-functioning food system, with a focus on local produce and tight, ethical supply chains, is vital for future generations to safeguard their health, to safeguard their livelihoods, not to mention protecting our planet. But, at present, the global food system is littered with hindrances and as, again, the report says, and I quote,
'dysfunctional production, distribution and consumption practices...endanger health, contribute to the nature and climate emergencies and food insecurity.'
Now, Llywydd, I know I've already mentioned the importance of not looking at tackling food insecurity in siloed ways; the same principle is true for how we should at look at food production. Our food system is integrated across the UK and, through trade, we have links internationally. Now, Jenny Rathbone has set out how this on the one hand presents many challenges because of the prospect of Brexit, and indeed particularly a 'no deal' Brexit, and, indeed, I think that's something that we have to keep in mind in this debate. But, as Llyr had also pointed out, this integrated nature of the system also provides us with an opportunity. Through the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, we can actually use this to lead the world with food policies that are sustainable and globally responsible.
It's come up, of course, inevitably, in the debate, as with so many issues—the COVID-19 pandemic has made the need for making these changes to our food system even more vital. We've got a chance now to create that system in Wales that addresses the climate and nature crises, that is ethical and builds on our status as a Fairtrade Nation. We can invest in the skills of our communities to support local production of food; we can create a more equal Wales to make sure that every citizen is able to eat healthily. We have this opportunity, Llywydd, to build that system of food production and distribution that meets the needs of everyone without stealing from the tables of future generations—let's use that opportunity now.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Can I say what a pleasure it is to take part in this debate? I think the contributions preceding mine have been excellent; I hope I can add something to it. But there's something that I've agreed with in everybody's contribution so far. There are some areas of disagreement, and I'll pick up on the point that's just been made. There are some good parts of my Conservative colleague's contribution, but I'd just highlight that issue of the focus on productivity alone is not where we should be. Productivity is important in terms of farmland, but it's not the be-all and end-all. I want to turn this upside down a little bit, and focus on what we're trying to achieve out of food and the food system. I have to say, there have been some really, really strong ideas and strategies and plans over many, many years. Welsh Government has had some of the best, most innovative, coherent, integrated plans—the previous Welsh Government, by the way—but they haven't been totally followed through, and some things are pulled in different directions. So, let me just say that we should turn this upside down a little bit.
Let's start from what we're trying to do with the whole of the food system, and other speakers have said about this as well. What does a holistic vision of food look like? Now, I would say that there are certain things that can underpin this, and there's been plenty of good stuff written and talked about on this, not least here in Wales, I have to say, as well. It should be to do with an absolute right to good food. And do you know, by actually saying that—and by the way, UN committees have criticised the UK for not enshrining this right within UK legislation—maybe we can do something here in Wales. But if you actually put a right to good food for everybody—good, affordable, environmentally-friendly, sustainable food—it actually drives change within the food system. All of a sudden you have those things that people have been talking about, which is local food networks where the reward goes to workers in the fields and to local farmers and to community farms and local distributors, and then you drive local procurement around it.
If you have a right to good food, what you have is children coming out of school who haven't just done one or two lessons on how to make pizzas and so on, but they genuinely understand where the food comes from and how to use it, and then they grow up being able to use the food and the produce that comes from around them, and, importantly, you develop a food culture here in Wales very different from parts of the food culture we currently have. Currently, we're slightly schizophrenic. We have some of the best food in the world here in Wales, some of the best brands, some of the best local produce, and then we have the big, if you like, industrial mechanised approach as well. Now, really, if we had that right to food, what it drives is a pride in that local food, where it comes from, and the fact it appears on your table. If you look at what they do in places like Italy and France, places like Italy—northern Italy, where part of my family are from—it is absolutely guaranteed that the food that is delivered on the school tables and in the hospitals and in the public bodies has to be fresh, local food, unless it can't be provided, then they can go elsewhere. It's written into the legislation and so on.
So, what I would suggest is that part of this—it is picked up in some of the Plaid Cymru main motion, it is picked up in the Government's main motion as well—is looking at what this shared vision is. One thing I would say very strongly is that I like the idea that picks up bringing together farmers, businesses, public bodies, civil society, community farms, community growers, so we stop having unaffordable, non-nutritious food that is shipped across the world, that has all sorts of additives in it, and we actually develop a very different vision of it and then we work outwards from there.
All of this—and my final point is this—if we wanted to do this, and we could in Wales, because we've started doing bits of it already, my worry is that some of the proposals around the UK internal market proposals and some of the lack of clarity on funding that is coming to us after the EU might well hamper our ability to do this, because you need a bit of a bank balance to do this sort of change in terms of the way we use our land, we reward public goods within the land, and you also need the ability to do things differently from other nations within the UK to lead the way. So, I worry a little that we're on the cusp of having the rug pulled from under us in our ability to carve a different pattern, but we can do it here in Wales.
The WWF proposals are very good. I'd also recommend the food manifesto for Wales, which is a citizens' approach to developing food, and it talks about the environment, the role we play on the global stage in Wales, the fact that farmers and growers respond to local demand, the fact that Government recognises the value of social, economic and environmental importance of food, all of those. We've got the ideas, if we can bring them together in a co-produced vision, it will drive those strategies, and if we don't do it now because we don't think we have time, let's do it in the next Government.

The Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs to respond, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and I'm very pleased to be responding to the debate on behalf of the Government today and welcome the many contributions to the report that have been highlighted in the debate today. Last month, we held several lively sessions on the subject of food during the first Wales Climate Week, and we've seen a wide range of food-related proposals coming forward in the work of NRW in catalysing action to support a green recovery. Broad coalitions to create solutions for fair and sustainable food in Wales will be needed to inform a new Welsh Government food system strategy and build on last year's consultation. We are committed to close engagement with any grouping in Wales that comes together in pursuit of that aim.
Several Members have referred to food poverty and the use that we've seen of foodbanks, particularly during the pandemic, and political choices made by the UK Government have undermined the resilience of the food system here in Wales, and their policy of reform has driven up use of foodbanks. Welsh Government officials were directly involved, alongside communities and businesses across Wales, in supporting those foodbanks, particularly the ones that were so overwhelmed during the pandemic, and their ability to meet demand was in question.
Last week, the UK Government decided to deprive Wales of more than £200 million in rural development funding, sacrificing the incomes and prospects of our rural communities. I agree with Janet Finch-Saunders, we should support our farmers and our rural economies and community, and I hope that she and her colleagues in the Welsh Conservatives will find the courage to join with us in calling for that decision to be overturned.
Despite this challenging context, the Welsh Government can do more to achieve more sustainable food production in Wales and a fairer distribution of the benefits of healthy and high-quality food that Wales can and does produce. Our most powerful national asset in maximising the benefits of food production and consumption in Wales is our farmers, who manage the majority of land here in Wales, and as Members have referred to, I'll be publishing a White Paper on the future of farming later this month.
Some do argue that we should continue the basic payments policy in farm support, despite the fact it's not been successful in fostering a resilient agriculture industry or environment, and we learned this week of the UK Government's plans in which nothing more than the bare minimum standards of land management will be requiredat the entry level. So it's a basic payment scheme, really, in all but name.

Lesley Griffiths AC: So we argue that these proposals—and I know they are advocated by some in the Senedd—are nowhere near enough. They lack the urgency needed to meet the challenges of the climate and nature emergencies, and they lack the ambition we need for our food producers to strengthen their outstanding international reputation in challenging and uncertain trading environments. So that's why, unlike some, we do propose not a continuation of the basic payment scheme, but a radical break, as referred to by Huw Irranca-Davies, so that all public moneys invested in the sector support them to deliver more for the natural environment and make their farm businesses more productive and resilient.
We do see examples of innovation everywhere, and like Helen Mary Jones, I saw this year for the first time a milk vending machine out in west Wales. I think it was a different one to the one that she referred to, but it is great to see that sort of innovation, particularly from our young farmers right across Wales.It was really humbling to see the efforts of food businesses during the pandemic, not only to find imaginative ways to continue to trade in COVID-secure ways, but also to contribute directly to the effort to fight the virus, providing food for our key workers and even repurposing their operations to contribute other vital supplies.
Welsh Government has invested more than £32 million to support food businesses since March. We launched the Caru Cymru Caru Blas campaign, which involved hundreds of businesses in celebrating the sector's extraordinary progress in recent years, achieving a 38 per cent increase in turnover between 2014 and 2020. One of the ways we have supported the sector's growth is through the establishment of the food cluster network, the largest network of its kind in the UK, which connects businesses along every part of the value chain. We've created sustainable brand values initiatives, again strengthening the sector's commitment to environmental issues and to employee well-being and fair work. There are many food businesses in Wales who exemplify the kind of food system we need in Wales: local supply chains, increasingly skilled and diverse workforces, contributing so much more to our society than the high-quality food for which Wales is increasingly developing its international reputation.
As well as change in the food and farming sectors, we also want to draw more people into growing and sharing food in their local community, and Jenny Rathbone referred to the support Welsh Government has given to horticulture. We do have the twin challenges of the EU transition period coming to an end and COVID-19, but we have continued to support people, because we have seen an increase during the pandemic in people taking an interest in nature on their doorstep. And we've supported over 100 community food-growing initiatives, large and small, to expand the provision of community food growing in every part of Wales.
Llyr Huws Gruffydd referred to food waste in his opening remarks, and last month I announced £13 million in additional investment through a further expansion of the circular economy fund, and that funding will support the development of town centre facilities, which is part of a wider drive towards greater reuse and repair. We'll continue to work to divert food from waste and encourage the development of local food and skill-sharing networks. These projects, of which there are already many examples in Wales, are making healthy food more accessible and affordable, promoting social cohesion, enabling collaborative action between local authorities and the voluntary sector, revitalising town centres, building on our world-leading recycling record and reducing the environmental impact of our food. So it's really important that we bring together the many different perspectives and components of the Welsh food system, and the measure of success should be how these then translate into real change on the ground.
The action the Welsh Government is taking is guided by the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and its way of working, and the Act and well-being goals are embedded within a consultation we had last year. And the vision and mission document addresses many of the issues that have been raised during this debate. Janet Finch-Saunders referred also to the food and drink Wales industry board, and they've been a key partner as we've delivered support to the food and drink sector.
So the food system this Welsh Government seeks to support is one in which our communities play more of a role in shaping it for themselves. Change is needed to preserve the natural and cultural heritage of Wales and to distribute the benefits of the rich natural environment in Wales in a way that's fairer now, today, as well as for our future generations. Diolch.

I call on Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. May I thank everyone who's contributed to this debate? I think we have had a constructive debate in a good spirit, but one that's clearly highlighted many issues that need to be resolved, and I'm very pleased to hear the contributions made by everyone.
I'll just deal with the amendments first of all. I'm afraid the Government amendment lost me after the first two words, 'delete all', which is a pity, because there are clauses within the amendment that I could agree with, but of course I don't agree with them at the expense of Plaid Cymru's original motion, so we won't be supporting that. That'll be no surprise to Government. There is an irony that the Government is tabling an amendment calling on the Government to do certain things, but that's the nature of these amendments, I suppose.
We would be happy to support the Conservative amendment. I think that they're right that we do need to emphasise supporting local food and drink and recognise the role of tourism and also promoting Welsh foods abroad, which is crucially important, but there is an irony there that the Conservatives on the one hand are calling for the promotion of food and drink abroad, whilst on the other hand are pulling us out of our biggest market. There we are; a few other Members have referred to Brexit during the course of the debate.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Janet Finch-Saunders is right; farmers are exposed to a disproportionate share of risk within the food system, but, again, what share of the Brexit risk will Welsh farmers have to shoulder? But she did highlight calls for 2 per cent of land to be dedicated to horticulture; I think it's 0.1 per cent of the total farm area at the moment. But then again, we saw UK food box schemes oversubscribed by 82 per cent during the recent pandemic, with average waiting lists of 160 people, so we have the climate, we have the fertile soil, we have close proximity to heavily populated areas. I think there is huge potential in that respect, and we need to do more.
Helen Mary Jones referred to the Hendy example of selling milk directly. I suppose it's the dairy equivalent of the veg box, isn't it, really? And it's about retaining that local pound, which brought us on to public procurement, and I made the analogy before that our local economy is too often like a leaking bucket, with a number of holes in it, where all the local value flows out of the local community, and we need to be plugging those holes as best we can, and food certainly has a big role in that respect.
Jenny again reminded us about Brexit as well, and 96 per cent of red meat exports go to the EU. And Kevin Roberts, the chair of Hybu Cig Cymru, reminded us in that seminar that Janet mentioned earlier that a 'no deal' outcome would mean a 30 per cent collapse in farm-gate prices. So, the stakes are high and time is scarce; 28, 29 days from now, and we still don't know what's ahead.
Thank you to Delyth as well. It's a stark, stark statistic, isn't it, that a third of children are living in poverty? Let's just pause and think about that. A third of children living in poverty. Making sure they have food is one thing, but making sure they have healthy food is a whole other challenge as well. And as she was speaking, I was reminded, there was an article in the British Medical Journal a couple of years ago warning that the next public health crisis—obviously not knowing that coronavirus was on its way—but the next public health crisis could well be child nutrition. In the UK. Now that tells us something about the kind of society that we're living in at the moment, doesn't it, and the kind of challenge ahead, when it comes to food?
I think, Huw, you hit the nail on its head, really: what are we trying to achieve out of the food system? Maybe it shouldn't have taken us 20 years of devolution to be asking ourselves that question, but we are asking it, and you're right, there have been initiatives, but maybe not as comprehensive and not as keenly pursued as maybe they should have been. Well, let today's debate be that moment when we make that decision, when we make that pledge to the people of Wales, to the one third of children who live in poverty, that we will get to grips with that. And if it does mean a right to good food for everybody, then so be it: let's do it. Let's do it. And I share his concerns about the impact of the internal market Bill and post-EU funding as well, which could well hamper us, but I think we need to stiffen our resolve and make sure that we turn every stone to get this done.
Wales needs a food system that better connects the dots around all the different aspects that Members have referred to today. It's a complex task; nobody is denying that. Not only does it need a joined-up approach from Government—a more joined-up approach from Government—but also from all of the parts of the food system. I think a food commission could help draw that up or articulate how best we could make that happen, but, of course, the sooner the Welsh Government gets on with it, the sooner it can be that we can bring greater social, economic, cultural, health and environmental benefits to the people of Wales. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, therefore I defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

We will now take a five-minute break in order to prepare for voting time. So, we'll have a brief interlude.

Plenary was suspended at 18:00.
The Senedd reconvened at 18:05, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

9. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time. The first vote is on the Standards of Conduct Committee's report 02-20, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Jayne Bryant. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 40, nine abstentions, one against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee Report - Report 02-20: For: 40, Against: 1, Abstain: 9
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on the Plaid Cymru debate on the food sector, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, two abstentions, 36 against, and therefore the motion is not agreed.

Plaid Cymru debate: the food sector - motion without amendment: For: 12, Against: 36, Abstain: 2
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The next vote, therefore, is on amendment 1, and if amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 29, no abstentions, 21 against, and therefore amendment 1 is agreed.

Plaid Cymru debate - amendment 1 (tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans): For: 29, Against: 21, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendment 2 deselected.

Amendment 2—. No, amendment 2 is deselected. So, we move to a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7495 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that access to food and protection of the environment is achieved by raising skills, raising incomes and enabling collaborative action on the ground between communities, businesses and public bodies.
2. Welcomes the report by the Sustainable Places Research Institute at Cardiff University and agrees that new food infrastructure and delivery mechanisms should be guided by the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the five ways of working.
3. Calls on Welsh Government:
a) to bring together farmers, food businesses, public bodies and civil society to work towards a shared vision for a food system fit for future generations;
b) to replace the system of basic payment farm subsidy based on land-area farmed to a system where all public money supports the delivery of environmental outcomes alongside high quality food;
c) to promote fair work and innovation in the food sector in Wales to help create more well-paid jobs in the foundational economy;
d) to support community food growing and food reuse projects in every community in Wales.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 39, no abstentions, 11 against, and therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

Plaid Cymru debate - motion as amended: For: 39, Against: 11, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting time. The short debate will follow in a few seconds.

10. Short Debate: Iconic Welsh wildlife: The plight of Wales’s red squirrels

We will move to the short debate, and today's debate is to be moved by Darren Millar on iconic Welsh wildlife—the plight of Wales's red squirrels. I call on Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I've agreed to give one minute of my time to Rhun ap Iorwerth.
As the red squirrel species champion here in the Senedd, I'm proud to speak up for these incredibly amazing animals, and I thank God that the Wales Environment Link paired me with such a cute and iconic symbol of Welsh wildlife. I can well remember the faces of colleagues as their species were unveiled in the Senedd back in 2016. There were smiles from Paul Davies as he was appointed as the species champion for the puffin, relief from Janet Finch-Saunders as she was paired with the harbour porpoise, jaws aghast as Kirsty Williams was paired with the brown trout, and a sense of injustice as Jeremy Miles was appointed as the champion for the common toad.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Darren Millar AC: But being a species champion is something that I've taken very seriously and, for me at least, it really has awakened a genuine interest in the plight of Welsh wildlife. Globally, the conservation status of the Eurasian red squirrel is 'least concern' but, of course, this is not the case here in Wales, because the red squirrel is thriving elsewhere across Europe—in fact, as far west as Spain, and all the way across to Siberia in the east—but here in Wales the red squirrel has been under threat for over a century.
As the only native squirrel species in Wales, the red squirrel is an iconic symbol of Welsh wildlife and our natural heritage. For over 10,000 years, red squirrels have populated the vast majority of the British isles. As recently as 1945, the red squirrel was the primary and dominant squirrel species in Britain, including here in Wales, yet today that squirrel population has been decimated, and there are two primary reasons for this alarming decline: habitat loss and the arrival of the grey squirrel into Britain in the 1800s. There are records of releases, most of which were from private or pet collections, dating as far back as 1828, when one single squirrel was apparently released near Llantysilio Hall in Denbighshire. There is also a record of five squirrels from Woburn being released in Wrexham in 1903, and a number from London Zoo being released in Aberdare in 1922. And from these small beginnings, red squirrels rapidly lost ground to their larger, more aggressive American cousins, as they simply could not compete for habitat or food. And on top of this, the grey squirrels brought disease—squirrel pox. This relatively harmless disease to greys, which had built up immunity over tens of thousands of years, proved to be devastating and deadly to our native reds, which have no natural immunity to the virus, and it has killed many.
It's no wonder, then, that the colonisation of Wales by the grey squirrel was largely complete by the 1980s. Incredibly, populations of red squirrel in Britain have fallen from an estimated high of 3.5 million to a current estimated population of just 120,000. As we approached the end of the millennium, the only squirrels that remained in Wales were confined to just three places. Fewer than 50 survived on Anglesey, a few hundred remained in Denbighshire and a few hundred had beaten the odds in mid Wales, too. By the late 1990s, these population centres were deemed to be at significant risk, and the future for the red squirrel was undeniably bleak.
But it's not all doom and gloom. In 1998, the fightback began. The initial conservation efforts were started in Anglesey. They were led by Menter Môn with EU funding and later landfill tax grants. And Ynys Môn may very well be the most encouraging success story for any conservationist looking the turn the tide of species decline. When those conservation efforts on Anglesey began, just around 40 squirrels were left on the island, but due to the leadership of Craig Shuttleworth and the Red Squirrels Trust Wales, these efforts have paid dividends. Together, today, there are around 800 of our red squirrel friends on that island alone, and the population is so large that a number of red squirrels have even escaped Anglesey, crossing the Menai straits, to form a small population in the Bangor area. By 2013, all grey squirrels were removed from the island, and by 2015 it was declared to be a grey-squirrel-free zone. However, as with any conservation effort, there have been some setbacks. In the last five years, seven grey squirrels have been caught on the island, and had those squirrels not been caught by the dedicated conservationists, their efforts to protect our furry friends would have been undone.
I'm proud to be able to say that my own constituency is also home to one of the three refuges for red squirrels in Wales. In the late 1990s, the Clocaenog forest in Denbighshire appeared to be the home of what was the largest population of red squirrels in the country. But by 2011, it became quite clear that the numbers had declined significantly as a result of a growing population of grey squirrels in the area. It was clear that the red squirrels in the Clocaenog forest were under threat and that something had to be done.

Darren Millar AC: I’m pleased to say that conservation efforts that were led by Natural Resources Wales and supported by Red Squirrels Trust Wales have seen great success in recent years. Through careful forest management and by the releasing of captive-bred red squirrels into the area to bolster the indigenous population, we’ve seen a slow and steady recovery in the numbers of reds in the area. This work has been helped along by the Clocaenog Red Squirrels Trust, of which I must declare my membership. It has forged a strong relationship and partnership with NRW and the Red Squirrels Trust Wales in order to turn the tide on the fortunes of these wonderful animals.
It is these strong partnerships between conservation groups, Government agencies and volunteers that have set such a strong blueprint for future conservation efforts. I want to thank the many volunteers that I’ve met whilst visiting the Clocaenog forest, including Chris Bamber, the chair of the Clocaenog Red Squirrels Trust, Dave Wilson and Vic Paine. Their conservation efforts have made a huge difference. And, of course, conservation is not confined to Anglesey and it’s not confined to Denbighshire. They’re also under way in the Tywi forest in mid Wales. Around 300 red squirrels now call the forest their home, thanks to the efforts of the Red Squirrels United project—a three-year conservation programme funded by the heritage lottery fund. So much work has been done to conserve our red squirrel population, but, of course, we’re very far from finished. The future of red squirrel conservation has the potential to be bright and bold—indeed, bushy-tailed and bright-eyed as well.
In north Wales, the Magical Mammals project is just about to begin. This is a five-year project, which is being developed to bring together NRW, Clocaenog Red Squirrels Trust and Red Squirrels Trust Wales to form a leading conservation effort in and around my own constituency. But these conservation efforts are not just confined to forests; the work is going on in other places too. As the red squirrel champion and a proud patron and life member of the Welsh Mountain Zoo, I’m incredibly proud of the red squirrel breeding programme that is based in Colwyn Bay. In 1989, the zoo embarked upon its longest running conservation project, which, to this day, is dedicated to the conservation of red squirrels across the British isles. And by working on a UK-wide basis, that breeding programme has led vital research into wildlife reintroduction and the impact of squirrelpox. Our national zoo took a leading and early role in the reintroduction of an iconic part of Welsh wildlife on Anglesey and in Clocaenog, and I want to take this time to pay tribute to the zoo for all of the conservation work that it has done with red squirrels, and, indeed, other species, because there is no doubt that, without our national zoo, our wildlife would be less diverse and less rich than it actually is.
As well as the breeding programmes that take place in captivity, other methods of conservation have also been successful. From 2015 to 2017, the Vincent Wildlife Trust released over 50 pine martens near Devil’s Bridge in Ceredigion. As a natural predator of the grey squirrel, the introduction of the pine martens has helped to keep the population of greys back and in check. It’s this type of holistic conservation effort that we need to embrace if the red squirrel population across Wales and the rest of the UK is to recover further. In addition to the threat from grey squirrels, tree felling also poses a significant long-term threat to our furry friends. As things stand, red squirrels are thankfully afforded a number of legal protections. It’s illegal in law to deliberately kill or cause injury to a red squirrel, it’s illegal to interfere or obstruct squirrel nests that are actively being used, and, of course, it’s illegal to disturb a squirrel while it’s in its nest. And while these protections are very welcome, they’re not enough, because while the law does protect individual trees inhabited by squirrels from being felled, it does not protect the surrounding habitat, which, of course, is just as important for the long-term survival of the species. Forest habitat managements, at their very core, need to be at the heart of this conservation effort, and as much as NRW may want to protect our wildlife, I’m afraid that, at the moment, they simply do not have sufficient powers to be able to do so.
As things stand, the only reason that NRW can reject a felling licence is for poor forest management practice. The law does not allow NRW to refuse a licence, even if that licence will knowingly cause significant harm to the natural habitat of red squirrels.And I know, Minister, that this is something that we have corresponded on in the past in relation to these current arrangements. I do regard them as wrong, and I don't think that they reflect the value that people across Wales put on our wildlife, and, in particular, on the red squirrel. So, I would urge you, and your Welsh Government colleagues, to introduce a different model of licensing, which would allow NRW to be able to refuse felling licenses that have an unacceptable adverse impact on wildlife habitat. This is the case already in Scotland, and I think that that's a model that we ought to adopt.
Dirprwy Lywydd, the plight of the red squirrel, and other species in similar situations, has flown under the radar for too long. Without the appropriate action to protect our wildlife here in Wales, we risk causing irreparable damage to our natural heritage. Here in Wales, we've been blessed to inherit some wonderful countryside and some marvellous wildlife, and we owe it to future generations to pass that abundant thing that we've inherited on in better shape than we found it. In the words of a wonderful Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher,
'No generation has a freehold on this earth. All we have is a life tenancy—with a full repairing lease.'
And I want to encourage all Members of the Senedd, and our Welsh Government, to live up to that life tenancy. It's our duty to safeguard our environment and to support the plight of the red squirrel and other iconic Welsh wildlife. Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'd like to thank Darren Millar for adopting the red squirrel as a topic for his short debate. As we've heard, it's an animal that is very much associated with Anglesey. It's an icon on Anglesey, and if I'm honest, I am very sensitive to the fact that it wasn't a Member for Anglesey that was chosen as the red squirrel champion. But, as it happens, we have a number of iconic species on Anglesey, so, I'm very proud to be the champion for the chough. So, you look after the squirrel, Darren.
But some very important points have been made here. The red squirrel wasn't saved by accident. It was saved through very hard work. I'm very grateful to Craig Shuttleworth and his team of conservationists. I am grateful to Menter Môn, but we do need to ensure that everything is done to safeguard the future of the red squirrel, in legislation where that is possible, and by securing funding for ongoing work in years to come. But thank you for the opportunity to say a few words, and I look forward to hearing assurances of that support from the Minister.

I now call the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs to reply to the debate. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I too would like to thank Darren Millar for choosing this topic for his short debate, and Rhun ap Iorwerth for his contribution. I'm not going to get into an argument about who's who in species champions, but I think choughs would also be a good topic for a short debate.
I, of course, recognise the importance of the red squirrel as an icon of our countryside, and, sadly, as a symbol of the loss of our biodiversity over the last half century. As evidenced by the 'State of Mammals' report, which I launched last week, a third of our native mammals are currently at risk of extinction in Wales, and that includes the continuing losses of many of our most iconic species, such as the red squirrel. However, local interventions have turned the tide in some locations, where local populations are recovering, using methods that are now becoming tried and tested. As referred to, the key threat to the red squirrel is a viral disease known as squirrelpox, and this does little harm to the non-native invasive grey squirrel, but is usually lethal to red squirrels. Grey squirrels can readily infect red squirrels where populations overlap.
The natural habitat of red squirrels is Wales's native deciduous woodland. However, much of that is heavily populated now with grey squirrels. They damage trees making them more vulnerable to disease, and then are a serious threat to our native and commercial woodlands, reducing their ability to regenerate and their value as habitat, and also for timber. Plantations of non-native conifers favour red squirrels over grey, but these are detrimental to many other aspects of nature conservation, including the quality of water in our rivers fed from coniferous areas. The red squirrel population on Anglesey is recovering strongly, and individuals are now spreading on to the mainland of Wales, and also dispersing through Arfon. This is thanks largely to the efforts of the Squirrels Trust Wales, which has substantially eradicated grey squirrels from the largely coniferous Newborough forest on Ynys Môn and reinforced the residual red squirrels population by introducing captive-bred red squirrels from elsewhere. Following a range of operations on the mainland to control grey squirrels, red squirrels from Anglesey are now dispersing into the woods on the mainland. And further south, under the stewardship of the Wildlife Trust of South and West Wales, the mid Wales red squirrel population, which seemed close to extinction, has also stabilised and may be increasing.
The current three-year Healthy Reds project received just under £0.25 million from the National Lottery Heritage Fund and just under £50,000 from Welsh Government's landfill disposal tax community scheme to continue the aims of monitoring red squirrel populations and raising awareness. The Clocaenog Red Squirrels Trust is reinforcing low numbers in the forest by releasing captive-bred red squirrels. They're supported by the Welsh Mountain Zoo, and there is some early evidence that red squirrels from Clocaenog are dispersing into the wider landscape. Grey squirrel control is crucial for the health of both red squirrels and their native natural habitat. However, control operations are unpopular among some animal lovers, as they involve trapping and euthanising grey squirrels. Grey squirrels are not shot by conservation or major forestry organisations, but a number of individuals are known to use this method, mainly for timber protection. Pine martens are generalist apex predators that are known to reduce grey squirrel populations, and Vincent Wildlife Trust has successfully reintroduced a number of pine marten to mid Wales. The ensuing reduction of grey squirrel numbers may create opportunities for the red squirrel to naturally recolonise or be reintroduced. Further captive breeding of red squirrels was discussed at the last Wales squirrel forum, on 7 October. My officials encouraged Clocaenog Red Squirrels Trust and other members of the forum to draw up proposals, including identifying potential release sites further south, following the UK Squirrel Accord breeding and translocation protocol. Whilst no proposal has yet been received, I do understand it is in hand.
Throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, Welsh Government has continued to prioritise action to support the creation of resilient ecological networks that will benefit a range of species, as set out in the refreshed nature recovery action plan for Wales. This will provide more and better connected habitats, to support a diversity of wildlife, including red squirrels and other mammals. And we've launched a grant scheme, focused on actions to help restore our most important habitats, and the Natura 2000 network, which was established to ensure the long-term survival of our most threatened habitats and species. Our national forest programme will create and enhance woodlands across Wales, again helping to improve and join up woodland and other habitats. This will also enable the dispersal of red squirrels to new areas, and address issues of population and habitat fragmentation. However, we do need to do more to improve our evidence and understanding, and embed transformative action for biodiversity across all sectors. To help us with this, the recently established Natur am Byth partnership, which I'm supporting, will have a large-scale communications programme that will celebrate a wide range of rare and vulnerable species across Wales. However, it is notable that the project will not include the red squirrel in its list of around 70 target species because of the wealth of partnerships and initiatives, some of which we've heard about today, that are taking forward action for this species in Wales. Thank you.

Thank you very much. That brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 18:28.

QNR

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism

Gareth Bennett: Will the Minister provide an update on the return of fans to sporting events?

Yr Arglwydd / Lord Elis-Thomas: Our test events programme is currently on hold and we will look to resume when public health conditions in Wales allow.

Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Huw Irranca-Davies: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the effectiveness of the UK Government’s engagement with devolved governments on a co-ordinated response to COVID-19?

Vaughan Gething: I have had regular meetings with my Ministerial colleagues across the UK since the pandemic began. The First Minister has been clear that he would like a regular and reliable rhythm of four-nation meetings so we can learn more from each government’s response to the pandemic.

Michelle Brown: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of how quickly a vaccine can be rolled out and administered to people of high risk, once it has been approved?

Vaughan Gething: Wales-wide simulation exercises testing distribution and storage arrangements have taken place to ensure we stand ready to deploy vaccines safely to Wales. As approval has now been received for the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine, we will begin to administer in line with UK Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation advice.

Questions to the Minister for Mental Health, Well-being and the Welsh Language

Leanne Wood: What initiatives are being planned by the Welsh Government to improve the mental health and well-being of young people?

Eluned Morgan: Improving the mental health and well-being of children and young people requires a multiagency and cross-Government approach. We are taking forward a range of approaches under the strategic direction of our joint Ministerial Whole System Programme to improve the emotional well-being of our children and young people.

Mick Antoniw: Will the Minister make a statement on the effect of gambling on mental health in Wales?

Eluned Morgan: We are aware that problem gamblers are more likely to suffer from mental health issues. The Welsh Government continues to take an integrated and collaborative approach to problem gambling in order to reducing its prevalence and impact on health, mental health and wider society.

Delyth Jewell: Will the Minister make a statement about the mental health of children and young people in South Wales East?

Eluned Morgan: Ensuring children and young people with emotional health and wellbeing problems receive access to support and treatment in a timely and appropriate manner is a key priority. We are taking a whole system approach with partners to do this.